Email time....4/9/2012---EMPULSE NEWS

[Domenick]

Is this grab from the video the new Empulse or the old Empulse?

[Gavin]

Is this grab from the video the new Empulse or the old Empulse?

The only two images that appear to be the new Empulse are:



close up of new battery packs...

and



top down view of "tank"...

Gavin

[Shinysideup]

I'm digging the new battery pack look.

While the gold was initially catchy, after a while, it struck me as too much Las Vegas lounge lizard colors.  You know: the beer-belly dude in the black shirt with way too much gold jewelry!

This is much cleaner/high tech looking. And it probably provides much better heat dissipation.

I can't wait to see the real deal. Oh, wait: we already HAVE waited! 

[EmpulseRider]

Yeah, the new battery cases look the business for sure... much more refined, and they appear have heat sink kinda thing going on too. I am interested to see how they apparently heat and cool themselves off.

It really looks like the Empulse to be revealed in may is going to be a very different bike than the prototype. Almost appears to be an all new model Empulse... which is interesting. They are probably aiming to make it look more upscale to match a more upscale price point... but lets hope Brammo didnt forget about the little guy when the price it.

[Deadly Silent Ninja]

but lets hope Brammo didnt forget about the little guy when the price it.

I do think their goal is to sell a competitive motorcycle in the regular market. For that to be possible, they must have a < $15k option.

It would be even better if they could offer something near the Enertia+ price, even if the range becomes slightly less.

I love the idea of an "upgradable" Empulse. Buy a short range one now, have a the top shelf version in a couple of years!!!

[machone]

I agree that the bike HAS to be upgradeable from a battery point of view.

After testing electric cars on Top Gear UK James May said that 'all batteries are rubbish'. Apart from driving the personal portable electronic revolution plus countless other quality of life improvements, he was right.............. I do know what he means though. If you think of any rechargeable battery powered device you have the batteries are letting them down - iphone, laptop, radios, you name it, the batteries are the weak spot. My iphone is a wonderful device, but it keeps going for a fraction the time it did when I bought it. Batteries have a life and it's a relatively short one.

I will buy an Empulse, partly because it will eventually either be 'one of the first' or 'one of the few' - Hydrogen power development is moving fast. Whichever it is, first or few, the Empulse is a cool thing and also has the bonus of being able to transport me to and from work cheaply. Unless I am going to be very pleasantly surprised(hope I am), it will not be able to compete with high end ICE bikes and sports bike wise I'd be better off with a speed triple. BUT, it is something new and exciting and I'm hoping the ICE group won't have to wait long for me to catch up on a ride out.

However, technology moves fast and it would be nice if not necessary, to know that if new battery technology is developed I can upgrade and keep my 'one of the first' moving longer and faster. To my mind, it's the only way Brammo are going to be able to sell to the mass markets.

Regardless, it's exciting times for bike and ev fans - us!

[flar]

If you think of any rechargeable battery powered device you have the batteries are letting them down - iphone, laptop, radios, you name it, the batteries are the weak spot. My iphone is a wonderful device, but it keeps going for a fraction the time it did when I bought it. Batteries have a life and it's a relatively short one.

I don't think you can compare the life expectancy of a highly managed battery pack on an expensive vehicle with the slip in battery slabs in a cheap mobile phone.  Even laptops do a better job of ensuring even wear than mobile phones, which do a better job than the toy that runs on rechargeable AA's.  The warranties on these batteries (usually listed to 80% capacity) are quite long and they can do that because with a lot of cells in the loop they can make sure they charge and discharge them in healthy cycles and at mild rates.  Tesla's top of the line Model S battery has an 8 year unlimited mile warranty, but that's an extreme example of an 85KWh pack in a $70K product.

These bikes have a much lower capacity and number of cells, but still plenty of redundancy leeway and premium base price to provide a significant level of capacity protection compared to a cell phone.  Even the Enertia is rated for 2000 cycles to 80% and the Zero Motorcycle ZF-9 batteries seem to be rated for around 3000 cycles (hard to tell because they list a mileage figure).

However, technology moves fast and it would be nice if not necessary, to know that if new battery technology is developed I can upgrade and keep my 'one of the first' moving longer and faster. To my mind, it's the only way Brammo are going to be able to sell to the mass markets.

I think upgradability makes more sense for "adding capacity to a base model over time as you have more money to invest" than to protect against batteries wearing down.  Also, when new technology is released you have to factor in that they may be packaging it into packs with different profiles than the 15/90 they will use on the Empulse and so how likely will they be able to, or invest the time and development to, make those batteries available on Empulses which are likely to be outdated in many other ways by the time the battery technology significantly shifts.

Also, by the time battery technology shifts that much there may be a lot of EVs on the road and we might start seeing custom shops spring up which offer to rebuild a variety of vehicular battery packs so that may be the eventual route for upgrading technology whether or not Brammo gets involved.

Regardless, it's exciting times for bike and ev fans - us!

Fully agree! 

[protomech]

Yeah. I replaced my iphone 3GS battery after approximately 20 months of heavy use. Paid $15 ($3/Wh!) for the replacement.

Different applications, different batteries. The cell phone batteries must be as light as possible, and the devices likely have a design life of less than two years .. probably < 300 cycles. I know in my case I left the cell phone in the car (interior temps in the 140 degree range) for probably 12 months of weekdays (couldn't bring the phones into our job site until just recently).

Brammo rates their bike batteries at 1500 cycles, Zero rates their bike batteries at 3000 cycles (to 80% in both cases).

I plan on 100k miles on the Zero in 10 years. That's ~1500 cycles at the 65 miles per charge I'm getting. I'm not worried about the battery expiring from cycle life or storage temperatures, I expect it to receive most of its wear through calendar aging.

[Richard230]

In the case of Zero, the entire motorcycle is guaranteed for 2 years.  My guess is that the 3000 cycle rating for the batteries is not a guarantee that extends beyond that 2 year period and there isn't anyone here that is going to come anywhere near 3000 charge cycles within 2 years. So we are all going on faith that the claims are correct. Frankly, I am not putting any more money on that claim than I already have.   

[machone]

Hi flar, guys

I suppose you are right that you can't really compare the two types of batteries but the point I was trying to make I stand by. Also, I know that some people on this forum have had 'iphone' style battery experiences with their EVs.

I recently bought a C200 Mercedes with 110000km on the clock, it was over ten years old. If there was any tangible hint of it's output being 20% less than it was when it was new I wouldn't have gone near it with a barge pole. The same thing was true of my Triumph motorbike when I bought it. It was 6 years old and no longer under guarantee but I didn't hesitate because I knew that if I needed parts if the engine stopped I could get them and probably have a coffee while I waited. Imagine looking at a second hand Empulse with a degraded battery?
'It's not supported any more and you can't get new batteries, but you can fashion some with a CNC machine and some very expensive metals, or there's a slightly dodgy gentleman who might be able to help you down that dark alley'...How many of us would honestly go for that sort of deal?

I know I sound negative, I'm not, but this is actually a major problem that could be averted if Brammo and other manufacturers would sell replacement batteries. OK, so there will be significant cost involved in producing and supporting an Empulse battery replacement but I'm willing to bet it will be shadowed by the lost sales if replacement batteries aren't planned. 

Compare the situation above with buying your second hand Empulse at a 'bargain' price that could have a new battery fitted. No comparison. Timed or lifed components are nothing new, the aircraft industry have regulated and enforced lifetimed components to prevent fatigue failure for decades. Ask anybody who has considered buying an aeroplane and they will tell you that the engine(read battery) time before overhaul or replacement is one of the most important factors in the purchase.

This is a dissadvantage of battery powered vehicles that could and should be sorted out early on. Do it, Brammo!

I'll still be getting one regardless but I don't want to be looking for my strange genious in some dark alley in 6 years time!

[EmpulseRider]

Hi flar, guys

I suppose you are right that you can't really compare the two types of batteries but the point I was trying to make I stand by. Also, I know that some people on this forum have had 'iphone' style battery experiences with their EVs.

I recently bought a C200 Mercedes with 110000km on the clock, it was over ten years old. If there was any tangible hint of it's output being 20% less than it was when it was new I wouldn't have gone near it with a barge pole. The same thing was true of my Triumph motorbike when I bought it. It was 6 years old and no longer under guarantee but I didn't hesitate because I knew that if I needed parts if the engine stopped I could get them and probably have a coffee while I waited. Imagine looking at a second hand Empulse with a degraded battery?
'It's not supported any more and you can't get new batteries, but you can fashion some with a CNC machine and some very expensive metals, or there's a slightly dodgy gentleman who might be able to help you down that dark alley'...How many of us would honestly go for that sort of deal?

I know I sound negative, I'm not, but this is actually a major problem that could be averted if Brammo and other manufacturers would sell replacement batteries. OK, so there will be significant cost involved in producing and supporting an Empulse battery replacement but I'm willing to bet it will be shadowed by the lost sales if replacement batteries aren't planned. 

Compare the situation above with buying your second hand Empulse at a 'bargain' price that could have a new battery fitted. No comparison. Timed or lifed components are nothing new, the aircraft industry have regulated and enforced lifetimed components to prevent fatigue failure for decades. Ask anybody who has considered buying an aeroplane and they will tell you that the engine(read battery) time before overhaul or replacement is one of the most important factors in the purchase.

This is a dissadvantage of battery powered vehicles that could and should be sorted out early on. Do it, Brammo!

I'll still be getting one regardless but I don't want to be looking for my strange genious in some dark alley in 6 years time!

Now that Brammo is developing their own battery modules I think they will definitely benefit from selling them separately. It almost seems to me like they intend to sell their battery technology (Brammo Powerpack?) to other OEMs too. Even the original Enertia had off the shelf Valence batteries that you could buy elsewhere anyway. Zero sells replacement battery packs as well.

[FreepZ]

The Brammo Battery Pack sounds like something that they would put into something like this:



I assume that when Polaris invested in Brammo, one of the benefits would be access to their technology, including the battery pack. The more vehicles the battery pack goes into, the better! It will make the pack cheaper, and encourage development and improvements.

[Brammofan]

That's strange.  Just got another email from Brammo.  Shorter than the first one, with no additional information.

Anyone else?

[Richard230]

I got one too. Pretty much like the last one, only shorter. Same video link, too.

[Lastb0isct]

That's strange.  Just got another email from Brammo.  Shorter than the first one, with no additional information.

Anyone else?

Yep...i got excited too.  Thought they were going to give us a sneak peak!  Does anyone know if the "free giveaway" empulse is still going to happen?  I'm banking on getting a free one