Fully Charged reviews e-bikes

[protomech]

I would ask for a maintenance schedule, and get pricing on the brushes (if it is in fact a brushed motor). There are honestly very few Zero bikes with high miles .. brush replacement interval in practice seems to be between 5-10k miles.

I would like to know the manufacturer of the battery, but you may not care : P Maybe ask about temperature range for the bike (charge/discharge/storage), but I'm sure it's okay.

If you feel ballsy, ask them about the reliability of the Agni motors and see what they're doing to keep the dual motor system working well. The racing community as a whole flocked to the Agni motors initially because of their awesome power to weight ratios .. but it turns out that the motors grenade on a regular basis when you crank up the voltage and current (as I suppose Agility is doing) to get those awesome power numbers. Zero runs the motors at a substantially lower voltage (55-60V) and lower current (~300A), which produces less power but seems to be pretty reliable.

And multiply those problems for dual motors. MotoCzysz used 3 Agnis for his initial IOM TT bike in 2008, and he never could get it to work correctly. He DNFed in the race after motor failure. I would hope Agility is doing something more clever with the Agnis, like a dual stator / single unit approach or something.

If there's one thing I've learned after riding the Zero for a while now it's that I can get used to ugly. The Zero is definitely not sexy like the Empulse concept (or the production version), but I love riding it.

[machone]

As the reality is a step closer it's time to edumacate myself betterer.
Axial Flux permanent magnet motors look to be, like most cool stuff, developed for the battlefield, but not as motors but alternators. Brushes? Surely these motors are brushless? Also, brushed won't have the 'user defineable' regen/torque curve will they?
Wrt battery, is the make important regarding where the metals were mined etc? Or is it a more functional reliability question?
I've asked the motor question already but not sure which questions will be 'commercially sensitive'.
If the performance is what I've been looking for re range speed, I honestly won't be too worried if it's a team of highly bred hamsters in there!
If the bike's ugly it won't make the rider look as bad! I'm really more worried about comfort with the tank bag esque thing interfering with the free movement of my big gut! Will ask if I can film(not the gut) and then will post.

[Deadly Silent Ninja]

If the performance is what I've been looking for re range speed, I honestly won't be too worried if it's a team of highly bred hamsters in there!

Like this?

[Deadly Silent Ninja]

Some people won't let the hamsters have their fun...

[machone]

There is a certain resemblance!

No test ride yet but I was phoned back by the CEO today and had a 40 minute phonecall with him(the CEO).... Very impressive. They will work out if my commuting/riding profile works with the bike and will suggest mapping/gear options to maximise the bike for my profile!

I must admit I am sold on the bike. He came across as an enthusiast and I really don't feel as if that company will pull any nasty surprises. If they do, it won't be because of the CEO.

I am aware this is a Brammo forum so I won't bang on about it, I'll post this and the test ride impressions.

Protomech, I should never have doubted you - it is a brushed Agni motor. It is a unique Agni for Agility. I asked about reliability but he said they have a limited sample size but real bike testing has gone beyond most riders warranty period and they are confident well beyond that. The reason for the 1-2 year warranty is risk management at such low volume, nothing more(And I certainly believe him). They are hoping to extend with sales. The motor is single stator but a custom Agni, not available anywhere else. I asked about brushless motors but the price point is not right yet but it is possible in the future. Brush replacement will be around 12k miles and they are trying to nail the service cost low.
The whole bike will be upgradeable and the battery is modular monitored - there will be an upgrade program..........

I say again, there will be a battery upgrade program!! Well, I am sold even if nobody else is!
I double checked whether this was just a stunt and the practical and cost implications would in reality make upgrading unrealistic but again, I believed Mr Marazzi and it is a realistic and planned upgrade program. 1500 cycle until 80%

They claim 3* the energy density of the Tesla. They stick by the figures on the website - 58miles for highway @ 65mph not what was claimed with my first contact. They are confident of more but with a 30kt headwind and slight uphill gradient they don't want riders to be disappointed. There is an onboard upgradeable charger.

0-60 times are real but the gear choice limits top speed. 4s = 185kmph whereas 5.8 = 225kmph. There is a small torque flat spot very low down which they are trying to iron out before customers get the first bikes but otherwise it should be solid.

The tank bagness is not as big as it appears - I'll report back after the ride.

Range accepted it really does sound like the bike I'm after. Lead times as quoted. Certification will follow but until sales reach high volumes single vehicles will be tested and certificated.

   

[protomech]

Well, this is the off topic forum. We natter on about our Zeros here, I see no reason you can't do the same about the Agility

3x the energy density of the Tesla.. Roadster? That doesn't make sense, regardless of whether they're talking Wh/kg or Wh/L.

185 km/h is a very good top speed when paired with a 4 second 0-60 time. If the specs are accurate then this is significantly quicker than the Empulse with a similar top speed, or roughly as quick (to 60 mph) with a much higher top speed. I don't race on a track, so speeds in excess of 100 mph are useless for me.

58miles for highway @ 65mph is pretty good, comparable to the Empulse 56 miles @ 70 mph. Slightly more battery energy, slightly less weight, maybe the aerodynamics are poorer. A 30 knot headwind would drive highway range down to 30-35 miles .. but that's an extreme case.

Did he give details of the battery upgrade program? Is this something where you would bring the bike back in 2-3 years and upgrade to a newer technology battery? I wish Brammo would offer something like this. Zero has offered bits and pieces from time to time.. but for all the talk from and good intentions of the manufacturers, none have come through. I would want to see concrete details of the program in writing before I gave any weight to it.

Most motorcycles have a 1-2 year warranty, gas or electric. I would like to see manufacturers offer optional extended warranties, up to 8 years or so. Even if most users never took advantage of them, a low-cost manufacturer warranty would drive home the point that a well-designed electric powertrain needs very little.

Just MHO - they're claiming great numbers out of their custom Agni which has been a route of tears for so many people before them.

[machone]

Just MHO - they're claiming great numbers out of their custom Agni which has been a route of tears for so many people before them.

Noted Protomech. I did press him on it, as it was something you'd predicted but he reassured me with a) the testing they're doing b) the numbers they could  get from the bike compared with the numbers they are getting and they are reducing the power to increase component life and c) to have an upgradeable system you've got to have confidence in that system in the first place. ie. the risk is with them.

I really like the upgradeable battery option. It was something I was concerned about as I've mentioned before. I had buried it, because I thought it wasn't available but now it is and I can feel the relief. I KNOW battery technology is going to change at a huge rate and with an upgradeable option I can move with the times. Psychologically this is a big deal for me. Truth is, I may never upgrade but it is the fact I can.

I also like the amount of tweaking/customising that is available - charger, power curves and regen options, all good.

Having an aerospace style monocoque structure that is formed in part by the battery itself also strikes me as a good idea. How they manage this and have the battery changeable I don't know but I also like a bit of techno magic, as long as it is not bs!

I'm holding off on the excitement until the test ride but it sounds like the right bike for me. I was told I was at the higher end of their demand curve with a possible 240km 24hr commute(40km each way with possible 3 trips per 24hrs). All averaging about 80kmph.

After doing a bit of reading I must say I'm surprised all this cutting edge technology is still using brushed motors! The fact is, brushless is the future and we're just 'accepting all the industry has at the moment'. I know, I know, speed controllers, power input etc but brushes are about as cutting edge as well, a brush!

[Car Loss]

They will work out if my commuting/riding profile works with the bike and will suggest mapping/gear options to maximise the bike for my profile!

Sweet.  I'd be fine with a direct-drive transmission, if it had adjustable ratios.  I know I'll have "in-town only" days, and can usually plan longer trips well in advance.  If I could re-gear for acceleration vs. top speed in a reasonable time, the issue of direct vs. multi-speed would pretty much go away for me.

This would be like what I have on my "single" speed bicycle.  I use a chain tensioner, and kept the cassette.  Thus, I can re-gear by stopping, getting off, and manually lifting the chain to a different cog.

The whole bike will be upgradeable and the battery is modular monitored - there will be an upgrade program..........

I say again, there will be a battery upgrade program!! Well, I am sold even if nobody else is!
I double checked whether this was just a stunt and the practical and cost implications would in reality make upgrading unrealistic but again, I believed Mr Marazzi and it is a realistic and planned upgrade program. 1500 cycle until 80%

They claim 3* the energy density of the Tesla.

Pretty sure they're using batteries in pouches then, not individual prismatics.  The issue with upgrading, then, is the skilled labor needed in reassembling the pack without losing a cell or three.

The tank bagness is not as big as it appears - I'll report back after the ride.

Range accepted it really does sound like the bike I'm after. Lead times as quoted. Certification will follow but until sales reach high volumes single vehicles will be tested and certificated.

If the numbers and delivery dates work out, I can live with bagness and ugliness just fine. 

Given these performance specs, yes, it sounds like they're hand-building for now, and thus probably losing money with each sale... the question is what volume they need to break even, and how far away is that volume going to come.

Carlos

[Deadly Silent Ninja]

It definitely looks solid, but so did many other elmotos. I will wish you the best of luck and I hope you will report back (please?) to let us know how the bike performs.

[machone]

I hope you will report back

I will indeed.

I lived in California for a year not so long ago and we spent a good deal of our spare time in bars talking to locals.... and drinking. One thing I learned is that many bar-going Californians have the false impression that the UK is a very small Island where everybody knows everybody else. Whilst this may have been true of Ireland years ago it isn't now and the UK is home to 66 million people - more than California, Nevada, Florida and Oregon combined. 

I know nobody on this forum thinks the UK is such a small place so why did I just write that slightly condescending sounding paragraph? Well, after speaking to the CEO of Agility for a while the other day there was something familiar about him so I did a google search and found out he was in the same Aero Engineering classes at London University and I remember the fella(he is Brazilian). I thought this was one hell of a coincidence. I have no other association with Agility but now I know we suffered the same lecturers I must admit to be rooting for him a little more than I would normally.

Interestingly(a little suspicious) though, the latest news is that I requested that I film the test ride and take along a CBR600 to directly compare performance and handling. I also asked about posting the results on forums. Whilst they were open to the performance test and filming they do not want me to disclose the results of any test before the bike has been test ridden by the main stream press. I would have thought all publicity is good publicity but apparently not. Rest assured I will let you know if there are any surprises.

I have high hopes, but most of us here have had high hopes for some time....

[protomech]

Well, you can always hang onto the video and test numbers and report after the magazines get ahold of the bike..

[Deadly Silent Ninja]

Whilst they were open to the performance test and filming they do not want me to disclose the results of any test before the bike has been test ridden by the main stream press. I would have thought all publicity is good publicity but apparently not. Rest assured I will let you know if there are any surprises.

I have high hopes, but most of us here have had high hopes for some time....

I'm not going to ask you to be any more or less hopeful, but the mainstream press request might be a previous agreement they made with a reporter for an "exclusive" to guarantee that the story is even picked up by the (or any) publication.
If someone else reports it before their publication does, it becomes an old story and not a "scoop." So, I think they would love for you to publish it after the mainstream press. That would count as "repercussion" of the story, which is a good thing for both the reporter and the company.

[kingcharles]

Do you have a date for the test ride? If it is near Amsterdam I would like to come by and take a look also if that is possible.
(and bring my vectrix for performance comparisons LOL  )
Thanks

[Car Loss]

I'm not going to ask you to be any more or less hopeful, but the mainstream press request might be a previous agreement they made with a reporter for an "exclusive" to guarantee that the story is even picked up by the (or any) publication.
If someone else reports it before their publication does, it becomes an old story and not a "scoop." So, I think they would love for you to publish it after the mainstream press. That would count as "repercussion" of the story, which is a good thing for both the reporter and the company.

Yes, google "embargo" together with publication or journalism or PR or whatever.  You don't become a successful mass-market company by letting leaks and rumors and buzz and such slip out uncontrolled.  Nor do successful magazines and sites and such stay successful by getting scooped.

Carlos

[machone]

Understood. I got an email explaining almost verbatim what you guys have just said - you are well informed!

I have no date for the test ride yet and I will have to sign a non-disclosure agreement. As soon as I have any information that I'm allowed to disclose I will(I have none I can't now either). I think the press releases should be later this month or early August. I'm hoping to become an early adopter/beta tester like some of the Enertia guys. We'll see - watch this space....

King Charles - no idea where my test ride will be but doubt it will be near Amsterdam. Most likely is somewhere near London which means a flight or ferry if you're still interested?