Author Topic: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.  (Read 6984 times)

FreepZ

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 776
    • View Profile
    • Empulse Experience
    • Email
Re: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2012, 05:33:54 PM »
I wish that I could justify the extra $$ for the R, but  I can't.  I'm already struggling with the non-R as is...so we'll see if I even go through with it.  Hopefully I can find good financing.

I would love to have the first bike made though!!

I'm sure that dialogue is going on in the minds of many, many people! (Myself included. I want it now, but it's so darn expensive, but I want it now... :P)
Richard #935 #595 #44

Lastb0isct

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2012, 07:06:31 PM »
I'd love the first bike ever but it's so expensive!! Need to check incentives as well
I think we had this discussion at the launch party in May? If you had a friend or relative in Colorado, they could get huge incentives on it, but I'm not sure what the qualifications on it would be...?

Yep, we did have that conversation!  I do have a relative in Colorado that might be able to help out...what are the differences in incentives? I couldn't find anything concrete for Colorado rebates on motorcycles.

protomech

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1987
    • View Profile
    • ProtoBlog
Re: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2012, 11:03:36 PM »
I believe Colorado requires the vehicle to be titled and registered within the state of CO.

Three things that may make it difficult:

1. Insuring a vehicle which is operated and stored by someone other than the owner.
2. CO may require a minimum length of ownership or payback of credit. CA requires a 3 year period, IIRC (ask Richard230).
3. Tax audits.

Anyhow, IANAL, and those CO credits are sweet. Seems like a gray area at best.
1999 Honda VFR800i | 2014 Zero SR
Check out who's near you on frodus's EV owner map!
http://protomech.wordpress.com/

860

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 231
    • View Profile
Re: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2012, 11:32:20 PM »
I'd love the first bike ever but it's so expensive!! Need to check incentives as well
I think we had this discussion at the launch party in May? If you had a friend or relative in Colorado, they could get huge incentives on it, but I'm not sure what the qualifications on it would be...?

Yep, we did have that conversation!  I do have a relative in Colorado that might be able to help out...what are the differences in incentives? I couldn't find anything concrete for Colorado rebates on motorcycles.

The first problem you would run into is that the bike would have to be purchased and titled by your Colorado relative.  Buying a vehicle in Colorado as a Colorado resident means having to pay Colorado sales taxes and fees at time of purchase.  It also means they would have to purchase insurance in their name in order to get plates.  If you have to get a loan to get the bike, then the loan would also need to be primarily in the name of the Colorado title holder.  If insurance is dropped, the lender will buy insurance on your behalf, and bill you for it, or simply repo the bike for the violation of the terms of the loan.  If you get in a wreck on the bike, your Colorado relative would also be on the hook if there were no insurance, or if insurance didn't fully cover costs.

While there is no specific requirement for keeping the vehicle for any specific number of years like in California, if it is clear that it is a straw transaction then the tax credit would probably be denied, and might expose your relative to legal liability.  A quick change in title to a relative in another state would be a red flag.  That could lead to them asking about where the money came from for the original purchase, which would expose the straw purchase.  Straw transactions just for the purpose of manipulating taxes is always a violation of tax laws.  The most conservative approach would be to keep the bike titled, licensed, and insured in the buyer's name until the tax credit is issued.  That could be up to 18 months later depending on when you buy.  Meanwhile you would probably be violating the law in your home state for not licensing your vehicle.  When you changed title, you would still need to pay taxes and license all over again in your home state.  If you have a loan, you will need to pay off the loan and refinance into a new loan when the title is transferred.  A used motorcycle loan would have its own new fees and will likely have a higher interest rate.  You might have problems with qualifying for the new loan if the lender doesn't think the bike has enough value as a used bike to be collateral for a used motorcycle loan.  You would likely have to up-front the entire payoff of the loan while the new loan gets set up.

There is also a federal tax liability for the tax refund that your relative would receive.  If they make a lot of money and pay a lot of state taxes, they might be fine.  But a large rebate beyond what they owe may be considered taxable income by the IRS.  We had that problem with tax refunds we got a number of years ago when we had TABOR tax refund checks sent to us.

There also might be an issue if you need warranty work.  The Brammo warranty does not specifically state whether the warranty is transferable or not, but does use the term "original purchaser" when it comes to showing proof for qualifying for the warranty.

Finally, the last thing that the Colorado green car movement needs is a handful of out-of-state folks getting caught gaming the system and getting exposed by 9 News the way they did a big news story about the same program and green car leases.  It is hard enough to get this stuff passed into law without handing our opponents a loaded gun to shoot us with.

If you would really like to get a state rebate, I suggest you lobby your own state to start their own rebate.  If your politicians are against green issues, work to get them replaced with ones who will.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 11:20:56 AM by 860 »

flar

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 488
    • View Profile
Re: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2012, 12:35:50 AM »
I believe Colorado requires the vehicle to be titled and registered within the state of CO.

Seems like a gray area at best.
Yes, definitely. That's what I believed was likely the case as well.

I think it was one of those conversations that makes more sense when you're waiting in line for your fourth free cocktail at a big press party. Or remembering the goofy times thereof, and what did that performance poetry guy say again?

;-)

The "marry a rich widow" plan was probably a better bet anyway...
Current bikes: 2013 Brammo Empulse R, 2005 BMW R1200RT
Prior bikes: 1988 Honda Hawk GT, 1997 BMW F650

protomech

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1987
    • View Profile
    • ProtoBlog
Re: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2012, 12:47:50 AM »
I have a brother in GA. I go to see him pretty often. GA has some sweet rebates on EVs.

Trust me, I've played out the "what-if" scenario in my head too : P
1999 Honda VFR800i | 2014 Zero SR
Check out who's near you on frodus's EV owner map!
http://protomech.wordpress.com/

Richard230

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 2519
    • View Profile
Re: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2012, 09:48:47 AM »
The rebaters in CA (which I gather is some sort of non-profit organization working with the State to further the sales of EVs) say that they will check with the DMV every year to be sure that you still own the vehicle during the 3-year period that you are supposed to keep it.  If you sell during that time you may be required to return all or part of the $900 rebate. 
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

AJ Nin

  • Enciter
  • **
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
Re: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2012, 12:11:33 PM »
I would take the chance personally, if I lived in Colorado part time. The chances of them tracking that are slim and none. Here's another thought for California residents. Do you really want to hold an expensive electric bike 1 year or more past its warranty period of 2 years? These are high-tech and tempermental machines with lots of expensive problems. Maybe the Empulse will be an exception, but I doubt it. I would trade the bike in just before the warranty was over, sooner if a lot of problems start to show up cause a start-up company may not survive serious "glitches" as they call them over at the Zero forum. Replacing a motor out of your own pocket would ruin your whole day and negate the rebate.   

Brammofan

  • Administrator
  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 3257
  • Following the momentum of Enertia
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2012, 12:21:31 PM »
These are high-tech and tempermental machines with lots of expensive problems. Maybe the Empulse will be an exception, but I doubt it.

Why do you doubt it?  The Brammo Enertia has been a dependable sturdy machine that has certainly set the bar high where electric motorcycles are concerned.

 
I would trade the bike in just before the warranty was over, sooner if a lot of problems start to show up cause a start-up company may not survive serious "glitches" as they call them over at the Zero forum. Replacing a motor out of your own pocket would ruin your whole day and negate the rebate.   
Well, the motor isn't necessarily what's going to hurt, price-wise.  The batteries, on the other hand, are the priciest component of these bikes.  As for glitches, some companies' products have them, some don't.  Some will survive, some may not.  Frankly, it's too early to tell.

I intend to hold onto my Enertia for a very long time.  It has almost 3,000 on the odometer and I can't tell that the battery has lost an ounce of 'oomph.'  Replacing the chain with an o-ring chain, which I did about two weeks ago, has made me fall in love with it all over again.
The Brammoforum Wiki is still active: http://www.brammoforum.com/wiki

AJ Nin

  • Enciter
  • **
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
Re: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2012, 12:35:03 PM »
But this is the Empulse thread. That's an entirely new bike.

protomech

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1987
    • View Profile
    • ProtoBlog
Re: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2012, 12:45:32 PM »
Indeed. You could score a new Perm 120 on ebay right now for $250. Or hot-rod your enertia with dual motors.. : ) (not really, Valence batteries are tapped out for power as-is .. but nice thought)
www.ebay.com/itm/PERM-Electric-AC-PMS-120-Motor-9-3-HP-Used-in-Brammo-Enertia-/180966895328

The controllers are high tech, and the source of the glitches Zero is running through right now. Both Brammo and Zero use Sevcon Gen 4 controllers for their newest bikes, I hope Brammo has done more comprehensive testing than Zero has. The batteries are high tech, but they're well protected and should give long life if not abused. The motors are simple, failures are rare.

The IET implementation is new, but multi-gear transmissions are hardly a black art. If SMRE has done their homework then it should be reliable.

Time will tell, as always.
1999 Honda VFR800i | 2014 Zero SR
Check out who's near you on frodus's EV owner map!
http://protomech.wordpress.com/

Lastb0isct

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2012, 12:54:10 PM »
Do you know whether or not the federal 10% is in effect now?  I saw that they're putting it up for a vote but I can't find anything regarding whether it's been extended...

Brammofan

  • Administrator
  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 3257
  • Following the momentum of Enertia
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2012, 01:01:32 PM »
The federal EV tax credit hasn't gone further than the committee stage, afaik.

And AJNin - I know that this is the Empulse thread but I can't necessarily agree that it's an "entirely new bike."  Brammo learned a lot when it designed, produced, and sold the Enertia.  That knowledge and experience has gone into the Empulse.  I keep on thinking that the delays in its release are because they refuse to compromise on the goal of putting a high-quality, problem-free, finished product into the hands of the buyers.
The Brammoforum Wiki is still active: http://www.brammoforum.com/wiki

AJ Nin

  • Enciter
  • **
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
Re: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2012, 01:12:11 PM »
Yes, batteries are expensive, and therein lies the problem. The inital cost is so high that bikes like the Zero S and Empulse become very expensive. The 2011 Zero DS for example retailed for $10,495. The trade-in value of it is $4,500. Empulse will likely be the same 50%+ depreciation. These are rich men's toys. Don't be mislead by the .10 or .20 cost to ride it. That is something of a smokescreen. Hey, if you paid someone $6,000 (the DS depreciation in 1 year), you could hire a car and driver to take you around at NO ADDITIONAL COST. LOL  Now I like electric vehicles, but I am not deluded into thinking they are inexpensive to ride.  
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 01:16:43 PM by AJ Nin »

protomech

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1987
    • View Profile
    • ProtoBlog
Re: Empulse Pre-ordernotification.
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2012, 01:42:19 PM »
If you buy a new vehicle and sell it in a year, you will lose your shirt. Doubly so with an electric.
* rapid advancements year over year (unheard of in gas bikes, which are on 10-20 year design cycles)
* uncertainty in the reliability of the tech
* market for electric motorcycles is still small

On the other hand, that's a convincing argument for waiting and hoping someone is desperate to sell a one or two year-old electric. That's the route I have half mind to take with the Empulse .. and probably means resell prices will remain high : (

A better strategy for riding on the cheap is to buy gently used when a vehicle meets your needs and hang onto it. Just like... well, any bike ever. My GS500 lost $2000 over almost 3 years and 7000 miles (bought used @ 600 miles $3500, sold @ 7500 miles $1500 to a friend in need). Not the wisest financial move I ever made.. but it was an excellent starter bike, and I have no regrets over either purchasing it or selling it.
1999 Honda VFR800i | 2014 Zero SR
Check out who's near you on frodus's EV owner map!
http://protomech.wordpress.com/