2013 Zero Modells

[oml]

A good morning to you all,

a few minutes ago a newsletter from zero motorcycles arrived, here is the online-version:
http://view.s4.exacttarget.com/?j=fec3127076610174&m=fe9c15707365007a75&ls=fe31167874650478721575&l=ff5c1d7877&s=fe51137877600d7b7310&jb=ffcf14&ju=fe9a1370746c047974&r=0

Too bad its completely german, and i couldnt find an english version of it? o.O

They boast with 220 km range (like the empulse), and, the most promising i think, just 1h charging time!

Here are pictures (they look as boring as the old ones)
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/de/2013

Yes, no english version again. Thats just ridiculous :D



All in all I think of them (at least of the S series) as quite uninspired. Bigger battery (11.4 kwh) - thats all. Booooring :D
And a pricetag of 16k Euros, which is even 1k more than the European Empulse. Zero really hast to stop with pricetags with the same numbers and just another currency - the conversion factor is 1.3 $/Euro! Even included VAT (19% here in .de) cant justify that!


oml

[oml]

ha! It actually has an english version:
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/2013/

ive guessed with an /en/ or /us/ in between, so i couldnt find it.

[Xaero]

Humm... they are listing CHAdeMO as a charging option.  That is the less widespread fast charging option in the US.  These manufacturers need to stop fragmenting charging solutions.  Tesla just came out with some type of fast charging solution too.  This won't help the electric vehicle industry at all.

[FreepZ]

For me, the most important factor is the range.

The ZF11.4 specs say:

City/Highway/Combined range:
  137/70/93 miles
Power pack maximum capacity:
  11.4 kWh
MSRP
  $15,995.00

So it looks like I can get more range with the 2013 Zero S ZF11.4 than I can with the Empulse, and it's $3,000 less.

Good grief. It's becoming more and more difficult to stick with Brammo. I'm going to have to reconsider all the options when the time comes to decide. Of course, this also depends on when the 2013 will actually be available, but Zero have been pretty good at getting product out.

[oml]

Humm... they are listing CHAdeMO as a charging option.  That is the less widespread fast charging option in the US.  These manufacturers need to stop fragmenting charging solutions.  Tesla just came out with some type of fast charging solution too.  This won't help the electric vehicle industry at all.

Thats the thing im most excited about: 62,5 kW of charging power and look at the grid in japan!
http://goo.gl/maps/tBXai - TEPCO built it in less than two years, and here everyone cries: An electric charging is absolutely impossible, it would take decades, etc, blubb.

Well, here in .de the grid isnt that great, 20 stations give or take - still, in most areas less then 100 km away, so a long trip (300 km) would not only be possible, but actually practical.


The problem in the US is that the main charging system, the J1772 brammo uses is currently only specified for lvl 1 and lvl 2, which both are veeeery far away (lvl 2 has 8 kW or in a newer speci 19kW) from the theoretical maximum power the chademo may put through (62.5 kW). If SAE would hurry up a bit and finalize the lvl 3 specification, zero might switch back.


Well, I personally think of the CHAdeMO as the more elegant one, as it (as far as I understand it) offers more freedom to the battery controller and doesnt slow down battery development by defining standards too early.

[protomech]

By the time the 2013 Zeros are shipping, the non-R Empulse SHOULD be shipping. Zero claims January availability for the 2013 models. Brammo claims "early 2013" for the non-R Empulse. If you compare the top S to the non-R Empulse, price difference is $16k vs $17k.

The 2013 Zeros have a hugely improved highway range. The ZF8.5 (7.5 kWh?) has 22% higher highway range despite having 6% less capacity than the 2012 ZF9 (7.9 kWh), and the 2013 ZF11.4 (9.9 kWh?) has 70 highway miles range. Zero's range specs for the 2012 bikes have been very poorly presented but accurate IME, and they're finally presenting a straight highway range.

So now we have three levels of charging:

Level I, 120V AC 12A
Empulse 8 hours 0-99%, 6.9 miles/hour (combined)
2013 Zero S ZF11.4 7.4 hours 0-95%, 9.0 miles/hour (combined)

Level II, 240V AC 12A (Empulse pulls about 12A, Zero pulls about 6A)
Empulse 3.5 hours 0-99%, 15.8 miles/hour (combined)
2013 Zero S ZF11.4 7.4 hours 0-95%, 9.0 miles/hour (combined)

Level III, 480V AC 100A (Zero pulls probably 37A)
Empulse N/A
2013 Zero S ZF11.4 1.0 hours 0-95%, 66.5 miles/hour (combined)

Zero is slightly more efficient overall, which gives it a noticeable advantage when charging on a standard 120V plug.

Empulse has a more powerful integrated charger, which gives it a noticeable advantage when charging on 240V (europlug or J1772).

With the optional accessory (no word on cost, but figure $500), the Zero has a huge advantage when charging from a CHAdeMO offboard charger. These chargers are somewhat rare in the wild now; the Mitsubishi MiEV and Nissan Leaf are the only other production vehicles that can charge from this plug.

[EmpulseRider]

Here are my impressions for those who care  

Revised designs... definitely heading in the right direction, they look good!
The headlight, and now the HP figure (54hp)   obviously inspired by Brammo.
68lb/ft of torque... wow. I see they left the 100mph title to Brammo, but 95mph is plenty fast. (sustained?)
CHAdeMO == YUCK
The dirt model should be VERY competitive with those specs! 70lb/ft... wow!

Prices are very good... wondering what that buys component-wise.

I think they will keep Brammo on their toes for sure. Brammo still way ahead in the style department though. Fit and finish yet to be judged, but we all know Brammo currently has em beat soundly in that department as well.

[protomech]

Here are my impressions for those who care  

Revised designs... definitely heading in the right direction, they look good!
The headlight, and now the HP figure (54hp)   obviously inspired by Brammo.
68lb/ft of torque... wow. I see they left the 100mph title to Brammo, but 95mph is plenty fast. (sustained?)
CHAdeMO == YUCK
The dirt model should be VERY competitive with those specs! 70lb/ft... wow!

Prices are very good... wondering what that buys component-wise.

I think they will keep Brammo on their toes for sure. Brammo still way ahead in the style department though. Fit and finish yet to be judged, but we all know Brammo currently has em beat soundly in that department as well.

Headlight is the same as the 2012 Zero and the 2010 Empulse concept.

Wonder what motor they're using. I think it's stretching a bit to say a 40 kW power spec is inspired by Brammo.. maybe if they had 470 lb weight too.

Frame looks very similar to 2011/2012 models. Seat looks to be significantly improved, good if you're spending nearly 2 hours in the saddle at 55 mph.

Power is up hugely. 40 kW vs 22 kW for the 2012s. 0-60 should be MUCH faster, figure about 6s 0-60 vs 2012 10s. Empulse is a bit faster if you're in the right gear.

On the track? Zero is significantly lighter, same power, slightly more efficient range claim. Empulse has higher-end components for brakes and suspension, wider rear tire.

If Zero's motor cooling is effective - and the 2012 is already somewhat limited, I wonder how well they'll deal with twice the power - then I think Brammo will have a hard time keeping the TTX ahead in 2013. I don't know whether Zero will race the ZF11.4 or the ZF8.5 - the 2012 ZF9s had significant charge remaining after each race, but the 2013s are much more powerful..

[protomech]

Edit: nominal capacity figures for the 2013 bikes may be incorrect, Zero is not re-using EIG 20Ah cells from 2012.

One more thing.. slight irony.

2010 Empulse concept, 40 kW, direct-drive, 100 mph sustained
Empulse 6.0 kWh, 360 lbs, ~60 miles, $10k
Empulse 8.0 kWh, 390 lbs, ~80 miles, $12k
Empulse 10.0 kWh, 420 lbs, ~100 miles, $14k

2013 Zero lineup, direct-drive, 95 mph top speed (sustained? unsure)
Zero S 7.4 kWh, 40 kW, 350 lbs, 70 miles combined, $14k
Zero S 9.9 kWh, 40 kW, 382 lbs, 93 miles combined, $16k

2013 Empulse, 40 kW, multi-speed transmission, level 2 charger, 100+ mph sustained
Empulse 9.3 kWh, 470 lbs, 77 miles combined, $17k
Empulse R 9.3 kWh, 470 lbs, 77 miles combined, $19k

The 2010 Empulse concept is closer to the 2013 Zero lineup than the 2013 Empulse, at least just looking at specs. It's a day late (2 years) and a dollar (couple thousand) short, but the 2010 Empulse has a launch date. Just not from Brammo.

[AJ Nin]

Interesting that Zero has been riding these bikes around town and getting people's impression, so they have already produced some. There is no doubt they will be in the Zero dealers by January. One thing Zero has not done is allow for upgrades as they once planned. At one time they even said you would be able to purchase upgrades at a discount. Problem is, they keep redesigning, so no upgrades are possible...new motor, new batteries, new frame, etc.

We can assume the bike will not go 95 mph (about 89 actual) for very long. Perhaps it will do a sustained indicated 82 mph which should give you an actual 75 mph freeway speed though with a range of 50 miles for the largest battery. If so, and I think it is close, that is a huge advantage over the 2012, and would mean the bike really has become a serious commuter. Hopefully, they have also worked the bugs out. Decisions, decisions. Brammo or Zero? Suddenly, the advantage goes to Zero, IMO.  

[protomech]

My 2012 Zero S is about 4% high on the indicated speed. I've hit 87 mph indicated, which is about 84 mph actual.

The largest 9.9 kWh battery claims 70 miles highway range. Perhaps 65 miles @ 75 mph.

Where did you see that they've been riding the bikes around town? I don't doubt they have built a couple of test bikes, but Brammo had built test Empulses as early as March-April.

[AJ Nin]

The email Zero sent out mentions they have been riding the new bikes around Santa Cruz and see people with smiles plastered on their faces. I think they probably have more than a couple of bikes. Just a guess though. No way will the bike do 65 miles at 75 mph (actual). It should do 50 miles though. Wind resistence between 70 and 75 is a drag...get it? Drag. LOL

[protomech]

One last note.

Brammo builds their batteries with modules configured in series. For example, BPM 44/70 for the Enertia Plus is 44V 70Ah, two modules in series gives 88V 70Ah pack. BPM 15/90 for the Empulse is 15V 90Ah, seven modules in series gives 103V 90Ah pack.

Building a battery in series probably has some advantages (easier servicing perhaps?), but it has a significant disadvantage in that it's hard to offer multiple battery sizes with the same voltage. The Empulse concept was developed with two different voltages (88V 3 module 6.0 and 4 module 8.0, 111V 4 module 10.0?) .. when they switched back to a series configuration a la Enertia Classic, they dropped the two lower configurations.

Zero builds their batteries with modules configured in parallel. For example, the ZF3 module for the 2012 bikes is 65V 40Ah. Two modules in parallel gives 66V 80Ah (S ZF6), three modules in parallel gives 66V 120Ah (S ZF9).

I'm assuming they're continuing to build the batteries like this in 2013. They have a ZF2.8, ZF5.7, ZF8.5, ZF11.4. Zero used Molicel cylindrical batteries for several years before switching to EIG in 2012, so probably they're still using 20AH EIG pouch cells. Edit: incorrect, Zero is not using EIG cells for the 2013 bikes..

Two possible configurations for the ZF2.8 module: 17s2p = 62V 40Ah, and 34s1p = 124V 20Ah. I suspect they are finally building a higher voltage battery @ 124V. Higher voltage means less current for a given power target (40 kW = 60V 660A OR 120V 330A), which means less heat generated in the motor.. which they will need to continue to air-cool. Incorrect, LFP has posted a technical explanation on elmoto.

Motor picture courtesy Asphalt & Rubber:


At 70 mph, the 2012 Zero S pulls about 12.9 kW from the battery. Say 64V 200A.

At 70 mph, the 2013 Zero S pulls about 9.8 kW from the battery. Say 120V 82A.

Power loss from resistance is I^2/R, which is also the same (basically) as heat generation. Assuming constant R (bad idea?), the 2013 bikes should generate about 16% the heat (from conductive losses) as the 2012 bikes. incorrect

I bet they can sustain a higher top speed than the 2012 bikes. Like 90 mph, perhaps.

[emotodude]

As always, Protomech is on the mark. The big news here is Zero designed their own motor and significantly upgraded the batteries. No mean feat. The Empulse and S/DS are both about 40kW now, same as the Empulse. The Empulse is more aero, has a gearbox, but weighs about 100lbs more. The S is lighter, has fixed gearing, and is about as aero as a truck. Should make for some VERY interesting TTXGP superstock racing next year.

I think the bike to watch is the FX. Almost as much power as the big bikes but another 100lbs less. Undoubtedly the highest power-weight ratio bike on the market, should do 0-60 in the 4's. What an awesome urban assault vehicle.

In regards to Chademo, you guys should check it out. This means the Zero's will be able to charge in one hour, no matter the pack size, and you don't have to lug a large/heavy charger with you everywhere you go. Empulse will take about 3 hours with it's onboard 3kW charger and there is no way to make it go faster. True that there is no Chademo in the US, but it is HUGE in other countries, look at Europe and Japan, maybe Zero has a more global vision. IMHO, J1772 is a farce, just a glorified wall plug with a CC billing box attached to it, and it only does 6kW max. Chademo is an actual 60kW off-board direct DC charger. Come to think of it, I bet you could use the Nissan home chademo charger for your Leaf AND your Zero. How cool would that be?

[protomech]

As always, Protomech is on the mark. The big news here is Zero designed their own motor and significantly upgraded the batteries. No mean feat. The Empulse and S/DS are both about 40kW now, same as the Empulse. The Empulse is more aero, has a gearbox, but weighs about 100lbs more. The S is lighter, has fixed gearing, and is about as aero as a truck. Should make for some VERY interesting TTXGP superstock racing next year.

I was wondering who made the motor. If it's Zero's own design - maybe finally seeing results from the motor grant they received a while back? - then I have high expectations.

S may be as aerodynamic as a truck, but Zero claims better pure highway range. 70 mph on the 2013 S is 140 Wh/mile, 70 mph on the 2013 Empulse is 160 Wh/mile.

I think the bike to watch is the FX. Almost as much power as the big bikes but another 100lbs less. Undoubtedly the highest power-weight ratio bike on the market, should do 0-60 in the 4's. What an awesome urban assault vehicle.

Not quite on the market, right? : )

With a .. 180 lb rider (me), we have the following power/weight ratios:

2012 S ZF9 17.9 lbs/hp (geared for 88 mph top speed) .. ~10s 0-60
2013 FX ZF5.7 10.2 lbs/hp (geared for 85 mph top speed) .. ~5.5s 0-60
2013 S ZF8.5 9.8 lbs/hp (geared for 95 mph top speed) .. ~5.9s 0-60
2013 MX ZF5.7 8.2 lbs/hp (geared for 85 mph top speed.. yow!) .. ~4.4s 0-60

Estimated 0-60 times assuming motor has a similar torque curve to the 2012 motor. Probably a bad assumption - but there you go. I would be a little surprised if the FX pulled 4s 0-60 .. MX maybe. Still hugely faster than the 2012 bikes.

In regards to Chademo, you guys should check it out. This means the Zero's will be able to charge in one hour, no matter the pack size, and you don't have to lug a large/heavy charger with you everywhere you go. Empulse will take about 3 hours with it's onboard 3kW charger and there is no way to make it go faster. True that there is no Chademo in the US, but it is HUGE in other countries, look at Europe and Japan, maybe Zero has a more global vision. IMHO, J1772 is a farce, just a glorified wall plug with a CC billing box attached to it, and it only does 6kW max. Chademo is an actual 60kW off-board direct DC charger. Come to think of it, I bet you could use the Nissan home chademo charger for your Leaf AND your Zero. How cool would that be?

The J1772 spec goes up to 70A, I believe (15 kW). Most (all?) existing chargers are either 15A (3kW) or 30A (6kW).

I doubt anyone installs CHAdeMO for home charging. The charging station currently costs about $10k (Nissan) and probably requires higher power distribution than most residences have access to. 1 hour charging is nice, but I've had zero problems with an "8 hour" charge on my Zero .. even with often returning home after midnight, often leaving at 5:30, and 70+ mile days.