Comparing the Empulse with the 2013 Zero

[protomech]

Zero S ZF11.4 is 93 miles combined city/highway.

95% charge in 1.0 hour (93 miles * 95% / 1.0 hour) = 88.3 miles/hour (40.8 seconds per mile!)

Empulse is 77 miles combined city/highway.

99% charge in 3.5 hours (77 miles * 99% / 3.5 hour) = 21.8 miles/hour

Zero charge rate (miles charged per hour) is 4.05x Empulse.

Pure highway is 70 miles and 56 miles respectively, 66.5 miles/hr and 15.8 miles/hr. Zero rate is 4.21x Empulse.

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Empulse does not support J1772 DC. I'll update the post to clarify.

***

The first CHAdeMO station in the US was installed in 2010.

Rollout has been slow to date - maybe 200 total installations in the US. Japan has 1300 installations - on an island that size, CHAdeMO is very easy to find. 1866 installations in total (PDF) - see the attached image for the summary.

This is definitely not an insurmountable "first mover" advantage, but they do have some amount of traction.

***

I would think all the power electronics bits would be shared between the two systems .. the differences primarily are pinout and signalling. I wouldn't be surprised to see combo stations crop up that handle CHAdeMO, J1772 AC, J1772 DC.

In Japan Tesla will apparently offer a CHAdeMO to Tesla adapter. Presumably a similar adapter could be developed between SAE J1772 DC and CHAdeMO once one standard dominates.. better than HD DVD vs Bluray I suppose.

[ttxgpfan]

I thought CHAdeMO chargers had been in the country for over a year now, at least?  As far as the J1772 DC fast charge, Proto was referring to my interview with Brian Wismann when we talked about charging standards.  Basically Brian think that is the way to go because the standard supports both AC and DC charging in one socket, instead of needing two separate ones.

[flar]

@proto - you might want to clarify "mile for mile" because "bike A charges twice as quickly as bike B" sounds to me like a measure of the 0-99% times, not the 0-NN mile times...

@ttxgpfan - when I checked the CHAdeMO map back in October when Zero made announcements there were only a handful of stations in the US.  They may have been there for more than a year, but they were so scarce that I wouldn't have made any plans on them.  Even today there are now just a few dozen, but they are all concentrated in a small number of urban centers that sought to introduce them.  Many major cities still have 0 coverage.  That's not really much of a lead.

[ttxgpfan]

Not arguing what has a foot hold and what doesn't, or what is in convenient places or not,  just thought CHAdeMO had been around a while.  The Nissan Leaf Plant is just out side Nashville, which I am near.  There have been some Chademo stations in Nashville for a while now.

[protomech]

Found this blurb about J1772 DC.

From torquenews:
The benefit most touted by the SAE committee is that it means for a single hole in the car's body. Automobile designers are accustomed to designing a single hole for the gasoline nozzle, and apparently don't like to accommodate two holes, one for the J1772 socket, the other for the CHADEMO socket. Of course, the Nissan Leaf designers managed to squeeze both into one hole, simply by making it a very large hole in the nose of the car.

Earlier we asked whether the charging station networks were going to face an expensive rip-and-upgrade process. Once electric cars implementing the SAE standard start being sold (supposedly in 2013), CHADEMO will have a limited useful life. Nissan and Mitsubishi may end up adopting the SAE standard, just as Sony eventually began selling VHS players. Rendering CHADEMO a legacy standard means charging station network operators would face the question of continuing to support both CHADEMO and the newer SAE standard. It appears the charging station vendors are thinking ahead with at least ABB, Eaton, and Schneider Electric saying their CHADEMO stations have an upgrade path to support the SAE fast charging standard.

Is it possible to build an adapter for CHADEMO electric cars to use the new SAE DC Fast Charge connectors? It doesn't appear so, because the DC portion of the SAE plug is electrically incompatible with CHADEMO. The CHADEMO plug has two large pins for a DC connection, and several smaller pins for a CAN-bus connection allowing the car and the charger to talk with each other. The new SAE plug has two pins for the DC connection, and uses the HomePlug Green Phy communication protocol to communicate between car and charging station. If an adapter could be built, it would be complex.

Emphasis added.

Humm, I thought J1772 DC was supposed to use the J1772 AC control pins for signalling. Homeplug has been in the powerline networking business for a while (literally networking using the powerline) .. I would guess Homeplug Green PHY is an extension of this.

I suspect Tesla will also have a difficult time building a SAE combo DC adapter.

[Richard230]

Just to jump back to handling comparisons for a moment.  Based upon my analysis of the Empulse R's chassis design and specifications (which is based upon my having owned 40 motorcycles), I am sure that the Empulse will handle and be noticeably more stable around fast bumpy corners, compared with my 2012 Zero, which gives me a real nervous feeling when cornering above 60 mph on Skyline Boulevard in the Santa Cruz Mountains. The front end tends to shake and the bike doesn't feel very stable under those conditions.  However, it is just fine at 50 and below.  I believe the 2013 Zero has a longer and updated frame, which may improve its handling, but I still wouldn't be surprised to hear that the Empulse is more stable and will give most riders a more confident feeling in the twisties, compared with the new Zero.

[oml]

@ proto:
I dont think SAE-1772 DC wont overrun CHaDemo, out of several reasons:
1.: Chademo pretty much owns Japan. If you want to sell an EV in Japan, you must support Chademo. Those charging stations were build by TEPCO, and I dont think they will rebuild/change them to 1772.
The same reason applies to several european countries (NL, DAN, EST, GB)
2.: The Chademo plug is more advanced and build with enough reserve to upgrade to 2x the amperage without any problems. That would give those charging stations the possibility to upgrade to 125kW of supplied power without changing the interface.
The J1772 Plug on the other hand was designed with lvl 1 and 2 DC charging in mind and may have reached the limit with lvl 3 DC.
3.: The J1772 was designed by the automotive industry, the Chademo by a power company. Any questions? :D
Seriously, J1772 lvl 1 and lvl 2 AC were about the worst, uninspired standards ever, the only reason to specify them were to hold back recharging technology imho. Having VW, BMW etc on your team doesnt smell like success either :D


Even if both standards would compete on fair grounds I dont really see any reason besides the non-need to build a second socket in your car (which would be a reasonable argument for motorcycles with limited space, but in cars? Youre kiddin.) to use J1772.
Maybe Chademo wants ridiculous fees for implementing this standard, but I cant see that. Btw, did you have a look at choice of chargers? http://www.chademo.com/wp/items/  there is one for everyone :D


@ the rather bad distribution of chademo chargers in the US: maybe thats because of the rather weak (at least you hear its weak, couldnt see it first hand yet) grid? But I dont see how 1772-DC could solve that problem.

[AJ Nin]

Does anyone know the highest continuous speed for each of these bikes? Secondly, do you think the water cooling will make the Empulse a better summer heat performer?

[flar]

How about the cost of adding a CHAdeMO connector to a Zero.  There is a reason it is an option - it costs $1800.  Why would it be that expensive?  Licensing?

[protomech]

Summer heat should exacerbate any cooling deficiencies. My 2012 Zero could only hit an indicated 86 mph in a rough semblance of a tuck in the summer, but hit 90 mph at 40 degrees.

The Zero has alternate gearing which should raise its 0-60 time to 6s but boost top speed to 105 mph.

I think it's possible both bikes may be able to hold their top speed. Zero may have the weakest chance, but I bet 105 mph uses around 28-30 kW. Question is can the motor and motor controller handle 75% load ..

75% load on the 2012 Zero is around 16 kW battery draw, or around 75 mph on the 2012 bikes. This is the continuous operating speed of the bike.. so I think there's a moderate chance the Zero could hold 100-105 mph.

I expect the Empulse should be able to hold 100+ mph until the battery dies. (20 minutes or 33 miles.. or about the length of a TTXGP race)

[protomech]

How about the cost of adding a CHAdeMO connector to a Zero.  There is a reason it is an option - it costs $1800.  Why would it be that expensive?  Licensing?

Possibly specialty parts available from only one or two manufacturers + Zero markup. Zero's J1772 plug (which is literally just an adapter that plugs into the C13 inlet) costs $500. A UL-listed J1772 inlet costs around $100-150 online, and those parts are manufactured in the tens of thousands.

I wonder if they add any cooling to the batteries. We'll need to see active battery cooling to get 2C charge rates from fast DC charging, which is the holy grail IMO (plus 15-20 kWh battery). 90 minutes of highway riding for 30 minutes of charging, 180 minutes of 55 mph riding. Only 30 kW grid draw.

[oml]

How about the cost of adding a CHAdeMO connector to a Zero.  There is a reason it is an option - it costs $1800.  Why would it be that expensive?  Licensing?

Where did you get this number? At least for me the Zero-store tells me nothing.
Ive been wondering about the chademo-extra for quite some time now.

[flar]

I got that number from a Zero dealer and when I took my test ride I asked the Zero representative why it costs that much and he wasn't sure, but he did say that the connector itself was fairly expensive.

I don't think it involves adding cooling to the batteries beyond what is shipped with the bike because I believe it is a dealer install (I know that they are saying you can add it later) and the picture of what you get is literally just about 6-8 inches of plastic and wires (assuming the picture in the accessories catalog is everything included).

[Gavin]

ohhh, I want Brammo to use the Telsa connector...

then all the Brammo riders can use those beautiful Telsa charging stations



Maybe team up with Tesla....

BT Motorcycles (BrammoTesla).....

The best looking electric cars with the best looking electric bikes all on the same showrooms...with internet ordering and delivery.


Gavin

[BrammoBrian]

FYI...

The Empulse R has roughly 90Nm of peak torque to 4500rpm.  Running that through the gearbox and final drive equates to well over 800Nm at the rear wheel in first gear and over 700Nm at the rear wheel in second gear. 

This is the reason that Aaron Frank, who has even run Bonneville on a Lightning bike said:

This makes the Empulse feels like it accelerates significantly harder, and for significantly longer, than any ICE bike with a similar torque output. It might only have a 100-mph top speed, but it feels like it gets there as quickly as any superbike.

Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1304_brammo_empulse_r/viewall.html#ixzz2JP365boL

Having built and extensively tested a direct drive, 40+kW bike (Empulse concept) previously, I know that the amount of rear wheel torque achievable, and thus accelerative thrust, is nowhere near what the Empulse R is capable of.  Even with 90Nm at the motor, you'd struggle to reach much above 600 Nm at the rear wheel and still achieve a reasonable top speed with a direct drive system. 

I also feel the need to point out that manufacturers may differ in their philosophy for publishing specifications.  Some may be conservative while others may be rather optimistic.  I know that an un-named test rider has personally verified that the top speed "spec" of the Empulse is rather conservative...

Regarding weight, please keep in mind that the "system" includes a rider.  If you calculate the percentage difference in mass based on the same 180lbs rider, it becomes a bit less significant.  The mass difference is certainly less significant than the difference in rear wheel torque.  Sorry to put it so bluntly, but we're comparing apples and oranges here when it comes to performance...