Author Topic: Suspension setup / mods ?  (Read 3470 times)

aledbetter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Suspension setup / mods ?
« on: February 03, 2013, 05:59:18 PM »
Has anyone made any changes to the suspension for setting it up or switched the current out for something else ?

I think the bike is set out the door for a rider that is about ~170 based on the sag, which seems fine around town. But when I tried the bike out on the twisties (hwy 9 in saratoga) I found the back brake and shifter like to drag with a bit of lean.

Any advices would be great, I have seen an ohlins part that replacement for the rear shock online but don't couldn't find much info.
2013 Brammo Empulse R - fun
2012 Ducati Panagale S - fast
2010 KTM 530 EXC - dirty

Richard230

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 2512
    • View Profile
Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2013, 06:30:49 PM »
Considering how much you have invested in the Empulse R, my recommendation would be to find a suspension expert in your local area and pay him to set up the suspension for your weight and riding style, before you go out and start checking out the Ohlins catalog. These fully-adjustable suspensions can be really tough for the typical street rider to adjust properly and unless you get it right, you can have handling issues.  But once you get the preload, compression damping and rebound damping dialed in you might be pleasantly surprised in the improvement to your bike's ride and handling.
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

ttxgpfan

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 449
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2013, 10:51:35 PM »
The R's suspension is supposed to be fully adjustable.  I second having someone who knows what they are doing set the suspension up for you.

flar

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 488
    • View Profile
Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2013, 01:15:55 AM »
Any recommendations in the Bay Area?  At 250, I'm probably punishing the stock settings a bit...
Current bikes: 2013 Brammo Empulse R, 2005 BMW R1200RT
Prior bikes: 1988 Honda Hawk GT, 1997 BMW F650

Shinysideup

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1423
    • View Profile
Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2013, 01:43:00 AM »
Here's my shocking experience:

I found the suspension way too firm for San Francisco's infamous potholes. I'm sure it can be dialed in satisfactorily for a racetrack or even for twisties on decent pavement. SF surfaces are, at best, third world quality. I backed the preload all the way off and opened up the valves to max and it didn't help.

I took it to a specialty suspension shop that came highly recommended: SuperPlush in SF. They agreed it was harsh,  and couldn't get any information on being able to re-valve it successfully. Sachs suspension doesn't have a U.S. distributor. Online research in newsgroups (which called them "Sucks") showed that they are NOT rebuildable, although I'm not positive that that's the truth.

I ride every day in SF and decided it was worth, er, springing for the Ohlin rear shock.

I found out that the Ohlin in the TTX pics is NOT readily available: it's a frankenshock made up of pieces of different units, with Brammo racers talking to Ohlins who cobbled up something that was to their liking.

The good news: SuperPlush has a good relationship with Ohlin's folks and they agreed to make me a custom shock. That way I know I'll get the spring rate, valving, options, and rebuildability to suit me. It won't come cheap (quote coming soon), but to me, it's totally worth it, since I've had excellent aftermarket shocks (Wilbers) in the past and found the combination of vastly improved cornering AND abrupt-bump-soaking to be wonderful.

Last Friday, SuperPlush removed my OEM shock for careful measurements, and replaced it. Now that I know that plush is on the way, the stock shock is more and more unbearable on the rough stuff.

I'll keep you posted on the outcome.

http://www.superplushsuspension.com/index.htm
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 02:00:28 AM by Shinysideup »

Richard230

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 2512
    • View Profile
Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2013, 10:46:25 AM »
There are several suspension companies located in the Bay Area.  There is one in Mountain View and another one in San Jose, but I can't recall their names right not.  I haven't heard of Super Plush, but I like their name.

I have bought five Ohlins rear shocks over the past 25 years, with varying results.  I had one leak oil all over my garage floor as soon as I installed it.  After it was rebuilt, it worked fine and is still on my daughter's 1986 VFR700FII, which has 90K miles on the clock.  Another shock was delivered without any nitrogen pressure and worked very poorly (oddly, it was very harsh) until I discovered that it was defective and had it repaired (recharged with nitrogen) under the warranty.  The other shocks (two on my previous BMW R-bikes and a set of dual shocks on my current Triumph) worked OK, but I found them all to be set up for a heaver rider than I am, with heavy compression and rebound damping - in spite of my request to back off on the race track tuning. But all of those shocks were off the shelf and I doubt much was done to adjust them to my needs, other than setting the preload before shipping them out.

Hopefully the direction that Shinysideup is going in will work out - but, like he says, it is not going to be cheap.  I might mention that once a new rear shock is installed, it is likely that the fork will need some tuning before it will complement the new shock.  This might require, changing spring pre-load, modifying the damping oil or damping stack washers, changing the entire spring, or just adjusting the location of the fork tubes in the triple clamps slightly. Once you change one thing on a motorcycle chassis, you have to start changing everything else.  It can seem to be a never-ending process - especially if you are a perfectionist.   ;)
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

ttxgpfan

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 449
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2013, 04:29:33 PM »
Wow, I bought a Penske through Traxxion Dynamics for my VFR, and other than coming with one or two clicks too much rebound it was perfect.  Even came with a suspension dyno sheet of my shock.

Richard230

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 2512
    • View Profile
Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2013, 10:56:51 AM »
One of the suspension companies in the Bay Area that has been around for a while and seems to have a good reputation is Catalyst Reaction.  They used to be in Mountain View, but have apparently relocated to San Carlos, CA.
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

aledbetter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2013, 11:48:41 AM »
I think I might try getting the existing suspension tuned first at Catalyst.
If it still seems off I might just replace the foot controls with something that does not hang so close to the ground...

The drawback to having bikes with mostly small production has always been the lack of off the shelf upgrades and mods...
2013 Brammo Empulse R - fun
2012 Ducati Panagale S - fast
2010 KTM 530 EXC - dirty

BrammoBrian

  • Obsessive Empulsive
  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
  • Director of Product Development - Brammo, Inc.
    • View Profile
    • BRAMMO
    • Email
Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2013, 02:40:10 PM »
I found out that the Ohlin in the TTX pics is NOT readily available: it's a frankenshock made up of pieces of different units, with Brammo racers talking to Ohlins who cobbled up something that was to their liking.

Just to clarify:
Every shock that Ohlins makes is highly configurable for a particular application and made up of pieces, so this is no different from any other shock.  The hold-up is getting Ohlins to release an official part number for this particular shock configuration through their system.  We are still waiting on this. 

I do think you'll be better served working with an aftermarket suspension provider as the TTX shock for the Empulse TTX is designed for race use, so would be stiffer than the current production Sachs. 

Jeff

  • Empulse Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 194
    • View Profile
Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2013, 04:44:18 PM »
Here's my shocking experience:

I found the suspension way too firm for San Francisco's infamous potholes. I'm sure it can be dialed in satisfactorily for a racetrack or even for twisties on decent pavement. SF surfaces are, at best, third world quality. I backed the preload all the way off and opened up the valves to max and it didn't help.

Shiny, I hope it didn't damp your spirits too much.

I also found the stock settings of the suspension to be a bit stiff, especially indeed for SF.  My housemate who has far more experience than I helped me out with making some adjustments: left the preload pretty much the same (I weigh 160ish), but dialed back out everything else to nearly the softest they would go -- a half turn or so from the max as I recall.

With those adjustments it feels pretty stellar.  I was expecting to have to continue fiddling with the setttings, but I'll probably just leave it as is.  Caveat here: this is probably the nicest suspension I've ever had, so I may just not know any better.

7racer

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 322
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2013, 08:07:30 PM »
I weigh about 150 ish.

Could you take a pic of where the adjustments are on the sachs?

Also is there a height adjustment on the suspension too?  I have a small inseam and would make it a bit more comfortable with a lower bike (without compromising suspension travel).

CAT in HAWAII

  • Empulse Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 118
  • Empulse in HAWAII ,,,,
    • View Profile
Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2013, 03:59:59 AM »
I weigh about 150 ish.

Could you take a pic of where the adjustments are on the sachs?

Also is there a height adjustment on the suspension too?  I have a small inseam and would make it a bit more comfortable with a lower bike (without compromising suspension travel).

I weigh 237 & 1/2 ish,,, dang ,,? Now I figure out my setup when my bike gets here???
(Hawaii)

ISN'T THERE AN APP FOR THAT????

C'mon Gavin!! You've got connections! You could get the ball rolling!!! :o
Crashed! Don't go up against a semi-truck,, it ain't pretty!

2017 Indian Chief Classic,,,

SWAPPED!! First 2013 Empulse R in HAWAII !!! 🏄

-=SOLD=- HD Sportster 1200 Sport Anniversary Ed. -=SOLD=-

implovator

  • Empulse Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 190
    • View Profile
Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2013, 09:44:13 AM »
Please excuse me if I'm being a pedant and everyone already knows this kind of stuff. I'm just trying to help.

I think I might try getting the existing suspension tuned first at Catalyst.
If it still seems off I might just replace the foot controls with something that does not hang so close to the ground...

The drawback to having bikes with mostly small production has always been the lack of off the shelf upgrades and mods...

Yeah, I don' think suspension will help your ride height much if any...and adding preload might hurt your handling. Sounds to me like the handling is spot on if you're already dragging footpegs. New rearsets are definitely in your future. I know Brammo's working on them. I plan to pick up a pair ASAP. In the near-term, you can mitigate this my hanging off of the bike while cornering and riding on the balls of your feet if you're not doing it already.

I weigh about 150 ish.

Could you take a pic of where the adjustments are on the sachs?

Also is there a height adjustment on the suspension too?  I have a small inseam and would make it a bit more comfortable with a lower bike (without compromising suspension travel).

Preload and dampening settings are usually not settings that you can see since the knobs often make many revolutions. They usually have detents, so you'll wanna know the number of clicks from fully open (or closed). Shock preload is the exception, and there people usually just measure the length of threads showing past the collar.

My $0.02 on this thread. I haven't received my Empulse R yet, and so I don't know how well the suspension is going to work for me. Some people are really in tune with their suspension and chassis and they really like to get the most out of a new bike. These are typically people who have had saddle time on well set-up bikes with really nice suspension bits. I bet most riders will be perfectly happy with the stock dampening settings. I switch between bikes a lot, and so I usually just try to come close and then adjust my riding.

It's really fun to experiment with dampening settings, but it should always be done in a scientific way. In the past, I've used race chassis shops to set up my bikes (track and even street sometimes). They ask a bunch of questions, set your preload with you geared up, and then they throw in their "optimized" settings. And generally, they're right on, but where's the fun in that. I felt like I wasn't learning anything. Now I do my setup work for the street myself, and it's so much more fun. I've learned a great deal more.

For what it's worth, I recommend:
  • Read some stuff on the Internet so you get an idea of what pogo'ing, packing, pushing, etc. is. Learn how to set sag. http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/122_0509_motorcycle_suspension_damping/
  • Experiment with with tire pressure during break-in. Once you find something you like, set it and make sure you set it before every day of suspension experimentation. I habitually run a little low, sacrificing low-speed maneuverability for cornering-grip. It's too low if you feel like the bike is falling into corners. This is because the tire is more square now due to the influence of the rim.
  • Record your stock suspension settings.
  • Set your preload (sag). Check with Brammo or Internet for recommendations for that fork and shock and you're riding style.
  • Ride that for a few weeks after break-in.
  • Pick an end to start on. I start with the front. Keep the other end fixed (stock or last best setting).
  • Experiment with rebound for a day on the same stretch of representative road. Go from fully open to fully closed, then start splitting the difference and do some before and after comparisons. Continue this "binary search" until you've nailed it. (Think of your last optometrist appointment).
  • Ride that for a few weeks and then experiment with compression dampening.
  • Switch ends and repeat.

I bet most people (including myself) will be happy with just a preload setting. If you're really light or really heavy, you might need new springs. Preload should be used cautiously since it effectively reduces the performance of the spring. On the track, I always looked at the preload as a fine adjustment and selecting the right springs as a coarse adjustment.

And something purely anecdotal about rebound dampening that I learned from downhill mountain biking. Fast rebound dampening makes big hits feel harsh. The idea is that you don't want your wheel to track through a series of big hits, high-speed, you actually want it to skip across the tops. Furthermore, it's that strong and fast rebound response that sends that harsh input through the chassis. I've been thinking about this a lot and wondering if that would help city driving on the Empulse over really rough roads. Of course, we're talking about higher-speed roads, and not low-speed cornering. Unfortunately, I don't think full-adjustable on the Empulse R means high/low-speed rebound/compression dampening.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 02:14:18 PM by implovator »

Gavin

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 2652
    • View Profile
    • Sol Power.  BrammoBlog
Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2013, 11:39:21 AM »
Nice write up...

As for "having connections"...ha...the thought of me having connections is perhaps slightly exaggerated...

Personally I would like it to be a part of the Brammo pre-order and set up...basically one question: What is your weight and riding style...ok, 2 questions.

Then Brammo sets the shocks at delivery that is somewhat optimal for the size and riding style of the buyer.

Me: I'm right at 6 foot (slowly shrinking, but still a bit over 6 foot in sneakers, a bit under in barefeet) and 180 pounds (10 pounds heavier than I like, but I'm getting use to it...sadly)....

I figure that is right about the norm for US riders and likely the Empulse would be set in a nice area for me...

At the same time I am not an aggressive rider...If I'm dragging a knee that means I am falling down :)

But I still have fun in the twisties and get a nice lean on...just a safe lean.

So I would answer the suggested Brammo Questions as: 180 pounds and moderate rider (options would be safe/beginner rider: moderate/experienced rider: aggressive/crazy knee dragging rider)

Gavin