Author Topic: Suspension setup / mods ?  (Read 3919 times)

implovator

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Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2013, 07:38:43 PM »
can anyone tell me if the ride height is adjustable?  It looks like the rear is but not sure of the front.  My inseam is 30" and I am a bit on my toes on the bike.


Just noticed this was never answered. It doesn't look very adjustable to me. There are no linkages in the rear to change out. The forks look like they have enough clearance to raise them in the clamps, but it might hurt the handling because the front end already feels a little steep. Sure it'll turn in better, but it losing that trail would hurt the mid-corner and corner exit stability.

implovator

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Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2013, 07:53:07 PM »
FWIF, my $0.02 on suspension and handling.

Thin seat plus slow dampening definitely equals a harsh ride...when riding mild mannered. I was out to test the Empulse's range on my long commute which has a leg to campus before going to work. On campus, it was harsh. Riding down the interstate, big bumps were harsh. I immediately starting thinking of this thread and of what kind of adjustments I would make after I set the preload properly.

Then something changed. Once I got my range calculations out of the way, I started riding it with a little more attitude. Wow is all I can say. From what I can tell, the suspension really needs to be under load to really operate in the zone. Keith Code's books were the first place I had ever heard about that magical middle third of suspension travel. Once I started cornering with a little more speed and hanging off of the bike, it really opened up. I started getting on the throttle earlier in corners too, and it loaded the backend nicely.

I guess what I'm getting at is, I think this bike is nearly perfect for my riding already. However, this is far from a boring commuter, and I know full well if I'm daydreaming my way over every bump in the road then I'm going to feel it.

The real unfortunate thing here is that they only released the R straight away. The Empulse has the perfect specs to be a commuting monster since it's water-cooled and it has a huge pack. However, the suspension is going to be a literal pain in the ass for any commuter. I wonder if this is something that they can address with the non-adjustable suspension in the non-R Empulse? Even if they can, it means that we early adopters who jumped on the R will need to either put up with the suspension, try to adjust it for comfort, or thrown in some Ohlins kit. Kind of a bummer, but I for one am super happy since I'm going to wring this bike out. I can't wait for Sport mode!
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 09:11:08 PM by implovator »

Richard230

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Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2013, 09:06:51 PM »
It is possible that the Empulse's suspension will soften up after a few thousand miles.  The Fast Ace forks on my Zero had a lot of "striction" when new and their dust seals made a "thunking" noise when hitting small bumps.  Also they gave a harsh ride.  After about a thousand miles, they stopped making the noise and the ride became much smoother.  By then both the fork and rear shock needed their compression, rebound and preload settings adjusted and now everything is working much better than when the bike was new. So your ride may improve over time.
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

implovator

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Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2013, 09:17:14 PM »
It is possible that the Empulse's suspension will soften up after a few thousand miles.

That's a good point. I'll check back in with everyone in a week after I've got a thousand miles on it. :) I wish. It's going to take a while to get that mileage for me riding 50 miles day. In all seriousness, though, I intend to do some careful butt dyno-ing on this bike. I'll let the suspension loosen up and then start turning some knobs. I've got a nice ride home from work with a dozen or so good curves that I can hit everyday. They range from 65mph curve down to 25mph bus stops. I'll try an get some video up.

7racer

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Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2013, 09:44:14 PM »
I'm about 220+ miles in and the fronts seemed to have soften up.  The rear is still seems a bit stiff for my 150lb frame.

Shinysideup

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Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2013, 12:41:07 AM »
Well this old butt (pushing 70) has 1500 miles on the Empulse clock and the ride seems just as overly stiff for SF streets and freeway concrete expansion joints as on day 1. Can't wait for the Ohlins rear shock which may come in this week. I'll report back. Wish my butt didn't have such expensive requirements. ;)

ttxgpfan

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Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2013, 12:41:34 AM »
implovator, sounds like you could do with taking a click or two off the compression dampening, that will soften it up.  Just remember that general wisdom when playing with your suspension is only change 1 thing one click and ride, repeat as necessary.  And take notes.  Really wish Arron would get on the forum and give you folks some pointers.

flar

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Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2013, 02:32:11 AM »
I wonder if this is something that they can address with the non-adjustable suspension in the non-R Empulse?

Note that the non-R bike is listed on the specs page with "semi-adjustable" suspension pieces.  That was clarified during one of my discussions with a factory representative to mean that it will actually have just as many adjustable parameters as the R bike, but it will likely have fewer clicks/levels of adjustability for each parameter and the parts will be a step down on the OEM parts list in terms of overall quality.  So, while the suspension on the non-R bike may be softer/more compliant (time will tell), it will still be adjustable...
Current bikes: 2013 Brammo Empulse R, 2005 BMW R1200RT
Prior bikes: 1988 Honda Hawk GT, 1997 BMW F650

flar

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Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2013, 02:33:27 AM »
Well this old butt (pushing 70) has 1500 miles on the Empulse clock and the ride seems just as overly stiff for SF streets and freeway concrete expansion joints as on day 1. Can't wait for the Ohlins rear shock which may come in this week. I'll report back. Wish my butt didn't have such expensive requirements. ;)

A 20 minute visit to Catalyst Reaction in San Carlos could make a world of difference for around $40.  This not-nearly-as-old butt (pushing 50 and probably 100 lbs more butt) was very pleased, and the springs weren't even stiff enough for him to do it "right".  It will be interesting to see how good it gets when we order the right springs...
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 02:35:07 AM by flar »
Current bikes: 2013 Brammo Empulse R, 2005 BMW R1200RT
Prior bikes: 1988 Honda Hawk GT, 1997 BMW F650

Gavin

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Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2013, 12:32:01 PM »
if I remember correctly...a huge if at my age and mental abilities...

The R has Rebound Damping and Compression Damping on the Front Shocks. The non R has Rebound, but not Compression Damping.

I think both have Rebound and Compression on the back, but I'm not 100% sure...and I think, as mentioned above, the R has a few more settings and slightly better components??

Gavin

implovator

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Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2013, 01:32:02 PM »
I think both have Rebound and Compression on the back, but I'm not 100% sure...and I think, as mentioned above, the R has a few more settings and slightly better components??

On Brammo's site, they mention "gold" internals for the forks. Seems that Racetech has a trademark on their gold valves but I feel like I've heard of other valve kits as "gold" too. Whatever valves they are, they're probably a pretty serious upgrade, short of throwing in completely new cartridges.

implovator

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Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2013, 01:07:07 PM »
Anyone know what weight oil they use in the fork and in the shock on the Empulse R? I'm guessing that I'll have enough dampening adjustment when I set my suspension up, but in the even that I don't I might end up changing out the oil. I know there's some debate about the rebuildability of the Sach shock, but IIRC it has a remote reservoir and a nitrogen refill shraeder valve so that's usually a good indication that you can at least change out oil and recharge the shock.

I don't have my bike in front of me...torrential downpour today...but I'll look closer tonight. Man I don't know what's worse...waiting a couple of years for an Empulse or knowing that one's in your garage and you can't ride it. I feel for you guys that are snowed in right now. I'm riding in the thirties, but at least the roads have been clear until today.

Richard230

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Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2013, 06:18:11 PM »
I don't know about the Empulse's fork or shock oil weight, but I was surprised to find out that the cartridge female-slider fork on my Yamaha FZ1 used 0 weight oil.  I think you will find that the oil used in both suspension components is a lot lighter than what most of us long-time owners of damping-rod forks are used to (which would typically be around 10 weight).
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Shinysideup

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Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2013, 03:07:25 AM »
Update on my Don Quixote quest for a softer ride over San Francisco's potholes. (I know: it's a sports bike).

Here's the headlines of my saga:

After 3000 miles, my OEM rear shock has not softened one bit.

Ohlins says they should be able to supply a shock for the Empulse, upon request by local suspension shop, Super Plush Suspension of San Francisco.

Super Plush orders a custom shock, after I give them a buncha money.

After Ohlins consults with Super Plush and Brammo (I think), they send a shock modeled on the one fitted to the RR. Cool, I hope.

It doesn't work because the control module is on the end cap and therefore hits the passenger peg mount. Ohlins solution: tell the customer to remove the pegs. No go with customer (me).

Send shock back and start over with Ohlins who really doesn't seem to want to be in the business of making one-offs, even if there's promise of more sales in the future. Can't be bothered, is the feeling I get.

After negotiation with Super Plush, Ohlins wants to cobble together some parts of an esoteric European car shock at a cost of an additional $400 on top of the $1500 I've committed to. Their proposal will come with all kinds of fancy adjustments I'll never need. Shop tells them no deal; just send something with x stroke and y length.

Ohlins does, an off-the-shelf Ducati model, but the large base plate diameter interferes with the tubular steel of the swing arm and it won't possibly mount up, though it's really very pretty to look at.

Back it goes.

Now, I originally thought to go the Ohlins route because of the internet forums' consensus that Sachs shocks couldn't be rebuilt and Ohlins are eminently serviceable.

Not true about the Sachs, as it turns out. Eric at SuperPlush lets me watch as we explore the shim stack inside the Sachs and make judicious adjustments to revalve it. What a fascinating mechanical solution to controlling fluid flow; I never would have come up with that approach!

Result: much better ride! I'd say we're more than half way to where I want to end up. The ride is much softer, but still quite sporty-stiff, but the adjusters have to be backed off all the way. The good news is that there's quite a lot of range in the adjusters, so we just need to get the shims to give me a nice ride when the adjusters are in their midrange and I should end up a) happier in the butt department and b) heavier in the wallet department.

I'll try to post what shim configuration we end up with, since there's not a lot of data on Sachs shocks, at least in the U.S.  that I can find.

Kudos to Eric and Super Plush for hanging in there with a bike and a shock that is new to them and way off the radar of the KTM Adventure work they're famous for.

Ohlins? Well not so much, but they are, after all, huge. And they do make purty stuff with a good reputation on the racetracks of the world. Maybe someday, they'll see the electric light in an accommodating way. It'll probably take Craig and company's wild Empulse worldwide success to generate numbers that attract their attention. But I'm just guessing.

Richard230

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Re: Suspension setup / mods ?
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2013, 10:02:00 AM »
Thanks for the report, Shinysideup.  Unfortunately, I am not surprised about your experience with Ohlins.  They are a big operation and looking for volume sales.  As you discovered, you need to go to a small specialty shop that has the knowledge and time to invest in working on a one-off project.  It also helps to have this work performed before the racing season starts and they become much busier than they are during the winter.

current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.