2013 Empulse R vs 2013 Zero S "shoot-out"

[Richard230]

Finally we have a direct comparison between the two motorcycles.  No surprises here though.  The Empulse is the better sportbike and the Zero is the better commuter.  The Empulse accelerates faster and has a higher top speed, while the Zero will travel further on a single charge. The Empulse handles better and the Zero is simpler to maintain. The consumer gets a choice, which is always a good thing.   

http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/2013-brammo-empulse-r-vs-zero-s-zf114-91574.html

[frodus]

Nice review. I'm glad someone finally did it! I'd love to ride the ZF11.4

Agree with most of it. I think 3 gears would be just fine..... I use 2nd, 3rd and 5th most.... but I have used 4th and 6th at speed to keep my kW useage below 8-10kw. I think the transmission slack is acceptable.... it's just different.

I think it would depend on the gear you're in at 55 for the Zero to overtake the Brammo.... mine pulls pretty hard at 55 in Sport mode depending on the gear I'm in.


Good review though, glad they did it!

[Brammofan]

I think it would depend on the gear you're in at 55 for the Zero to overtake the Brammo.... mine pulls pretty hard at 55 in Sport mode depending on the gear I'm in.

Interesting that they tested the 50 mph throttle while in 4th gear. I wonder how it would have fared against the Zero in third.

Agree that it's a decent review for the most part.

[Gavin]

There is a bit of a learning curve with the Empulse

I don't shift out of first till 45mph...

55 in 4th? Heck, at 55mph I am just "thinking" about shifting into 3rd..


As for 6 gears...yeah it's a bit of overkill for me...but really you should only be in that 6th gear when you hit 90...and it is what M/C drivers are use to..

G

[protomech]

3rd gear @ 55 mph is the sweet spot for both efficiency and power. With an 8000 (or is it 9000?) RPM redline you can stay in 3rd gear up to 90 mph, though you'll get more efficiency and power if you upshift to 4th around 65 mph.

Part and parcel of offering a choice to an operator is the possibility of making the wrong choice. With the Zero you're always in the right gear.

I suspect the power delivery on the motor may trip up new Empulse riders. When the power peaks .. or plateaus .. at 5000 RPM, the motor may feel like a tapped out gas engine. Experienced gas riders may choose to upshift at that point to get to an RPM range where power builds with RPMs (3000-4000 RPM), even though the lower RPM range offers less absolute power and efficiency than the lower gear.

At least, that's what I think without having ridden the Empulse. How does that sound to our Empulse owners?

[00049 (AKA SopFu)]

I agree with your assumption, Promotech. I've never hit the rev limit on the Empulse, I always find myself shifting sooner despite knowing it may not be the best way.

I'll add that I would LOVE a parking brake!

[ttxgpfan]

I think 4th gear is was a good choice.  I don't think they were looking for which bike accelerated the quickest from 50mph.  I think they were trying to more directly compare motors.  My guess is that they felt the Brammo in 4th was close to the Zero's gearing.  Given the weight difference and slight peak torque advantage, only a slight edge given to the Zero I think says a lot about what Brammo has done.

And all you folks shifting the R around 5k while riding it hard, I think you're right to do that.  That's about where Shelina shifts on the R and TTX.  The regular Empulse you will wring out like and ICE bike.

"With the Zero you're always in the right gear."  Well, the only gear, anyway.

I was surprised the Brammo was said to leave the Zero in the dust off the line.  Not what we heard from the early Zero reports.  I'd still like to see 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

[Gavin]

My impressions...

The Empulse R motor is funny...when you get in the sweet spot, 4500 to 5500 RPGs, the engine is almost silent, smooth and effortless. You almost hate to shift out of it.

For most of my commuter riding I leave it in 1st.

Gavin

[Shinysideup]

I think 4th gear is was a good choice.  I don't think they were looking for which bike accelerated the quickest from 50mph.

I beg to differ: I think they WERE looking for which bike accelerated the quickest form 50 mph! The article said:

"A roll-on contest at 55 mph (with the Empulse in fourth gear) showed the Zero has a slight edge.”

In my book, a roll-on contest IS looking for which has the better acceleration.

Speaking as someone who has almost 4K on the the Empulse, most of which is on the freeways, 4th gear at 50 mph FOR A ROLL-ON CONTEST, is simply the wrong choice. In Sport mode, peak power is at 6000 rpm. Since 5000 rpm in 2nd gear gives me about 50 mph, that's the gear I would have chosen for this contest, shifting to 3rd somewhere between 6000 and 7000. Surely prospective bike buyers are interested in the performance of the bike as a whole, not just some subset such as characteristics of their respective motors.

Bottom line, I think the article is very misleading on this point, probably because the authors just didn't have enough experience on the Empulse to select the most appropriate gear. Most probably, 4th gear "felt about right" to a rider whose experience was coming from the ICE world. These bikes love to rev and stay in the upper part of the tach. It took me a few weeks of riding to really get that.

Otherwise, I thought it was a useful article.

[skuzzle]

In my book, a roll-on contest IS looking for which has the better acceleration.

A lot of motorcycle magazines would do "top gear roll on".  I think many manufactures would design their gearbox to improve the top gear roll on tests.  That use to drive me crazy because I wanted better gas mileage using top gear.  My Vstrom 650 has six gears... if I need speed I could always go down to 5th, or just leave it there if it needed it.

[Richard230]

Even Consumer Reports does roll-on acceleration tests with the cars that they test, so it seems to be a standard in the industry.  However, I have never been quite clear how they test an automatic transmission car (like most that they evaluate) against a manual transmission car.  With an auto transmission I assume that it will downshift into the lowest appropriate gear for the speed traveled, while they would have to select a particular gear for the manual trans.  I assume that they select a lower appropriate gear before stepping on the gas, but I am not sure about that.

Most motorcycle magazines seem to test their bikes using a top gear roll-on.  I think they do that because either most riders will likely not shift when accelerating at high speeds in an emergency (as they are too busy thinking of other things) or just because it gives the reader a feel for the bike's mid-range pulling power.

[frodus]

I take that article's claims of the 50mph roll on test with a grain of salt. It could be true, which is fine, but they lack detail for anyone to verify it's accuracy. I think you could likely find a gear that you would out-accelerate the Zero at 50mph, and that is exactly why having a transmission is nice.... because you have a choice of multiple gears. That allows you to do a few things: Put it in a high-efficiency range of the motor and get further or put it in a high-horsepower range and accelerate faster.

I think the difference in ranges has a little to do with battery capacity (10kwh versus 9.3kwh), a little to do with weight (accelerating a heavier bike uses more current).... and a little to do with the transmission (although likely less than 10% for gear/chain losses... ).

All in all, I love my Empulse R, always will and there's not an article out there that will get me to think otherwise. It's a great fit for me and meets and exceeds my needs. I'm done and will spend my time riding, rather than discussing transmission or differences between the two.

[protomech]

I think you could likely find a gear that you would out-accelerate the Zero at 50mph, and that is exactly why having a transmission is nice.... because you have a choice of multiple gears. That allows you to do a few things: Put it in a high-efficiency range of the motor and get further or put it in a high-horsepower range and accelerate faster.

Those two are the same gear almost all of the time, no?

I think the difference in ranges has a little to do with battery capacity (10kwh versus 9.3kwh), a little to do with weight (accelerating a heavier bike uses more current).... and a little to do with the transmission (although likely less than 10% for gear/chain losses... ).

BrammoBrian dropped a comment on ESBK to point out that the Empulse was ridden harder than the Zero.
http://esbk.co/2013/04/28/first-moto-rag-empulse-r-vs-zero-s-zf11-4-comparo-via-motorcycle-com/#comment-1521

[frodus]

maybe same gear.... how about I change to "peak efficiency" or "peak torque" since that's really what we're looking at.

[frodus]

Also, to be accurate, they need to run the same tests on a dyno....