Racing Gas vs. Racing Electric?

[BrammoBrian]

As we look towards 2014, we are faced with a dilemma - Should we commit to a FIM eRR series that will be predominantly run in Europe and Asia?  Should we continue racing in AFM with the gas bikes?  Should we cherry pick big events like the Isle of Man TT and Pikes Peak?  Or... should we give up on racing as a waste of precious resources? 

I'm curious to know your thoughts as the forum members make up a considerable portion of our small, but fervent fan base.  Thank you in advance for your responses!   

[860]

Continued improvements in what is sold to customers is job 1, so if racing gets in the way of that, I could see taking a step back from racing.

But it seems to me like the racing is really pushing the retail products forward, not holding back the retail products.  It seems to be a great testbed for always improving the Brammo's we can all buy. 

If it comes down to what racing Brammo should prioritize, I would say racing against gas bikes is the best bang for the buck for US sales.  If Brammo wants to compete against gas bikes in the showrooms for sales, beating them at the racetrack builds the kind of street credibility that racing against other EV bikes just doesn't deliver. 

If other US based EV motorcycle companies (Lightning? Zero?) want to compete against you, make them chase you around the track with the gas bikes.  If they beat you, and beat the gas bikes while they are at it, all e-motos still win, including Brammo.

[protomech]

Good question. I'd love to see Brammo race everything. Realistically, resource constraints..

1. Definitely race AFM. Racing with the AFM is awesome, especially if the Zeros show up too. There's lots of classes to compete in, tons of dedicated competition (who will, you know, show up for races) and plenty of benchmarks to beat.

AFM is really only west coast, which makes me a little sad. But both Zero and Brammo are nearby, and much of the elmoto customer community is centered on the west coast. So it's a good focus.

2. I'd love to see Brammo at Pikes Peak. I don't know about internationally, but it has a good bit of recognition here in the US. I imagine it's fairly cheap to compete at as well.

3. eRR in Europe has the only real competition, outside from the production racers in the US. Again, I don't know what the costs are - if it's a season of AFM OR a single race in eRR? Screw it, stay home and beat the gas bikes here. I'd love to see how Brammo bring it to the european racers .. but not badly enough if that detracts from competition at AFM.

4. IOM is huge visibility for electrics, and it would be amazing to see a three-way competition between MotoCzysz, Brammo, and Mugen. Maybe Lightning and Mission could get their acts together and field some other competition. However, it sounds like the expenses are very high .. would Brammo be able to be successful at IOM with the existing modular pack, or would they need to rebuild a higher-energy pack?

If it's a choice between IOM and any (or all) of the above, I'd pick 1-3 first.

[Shinysideup]

While racing obviously builds buzz and leads to improved technology, I'd also like  Brammo's public face (and product) to shift slightly to presenting a bike for general utilitarian AND sport use.

As I've mentioned here before, my BMW R1200R, with an added windscreen was a great tourer with its excellent side and top cases,  but also a good work  bike around the city, and, with the cases removed and a shorty shield in place, a good canyon carver. A true all-rounder. Note: I LOVED how the support system for the side cases became invisible once the cases were removed from the bike. Great engineering.

Now I have an Empulse, which is the most ideal "street fighter" i.e. quick-handling, quick-accelerating urban  bike I can imagine.

But, IMHO,  Brammo needs to tweak its racing heritage a bit by ditching the torture seat (great for hanging off,  but not so much for sitting on), make racks and cases (side and top)  available options, like NOW, and a decent wind-tunnel-tested screen or half fairing (like Parabellum Scout). Then advertise it as a top street-fighter urban do-it-all bike, AND offering unparalleled performance in the twisties for the weekend. Features and videos showing ordinary people using them in everyday ways.

Maybe I'm merely projecting my preferences, but it seems like there's a LOT more urban riders/commuters, than there are racers or even racer wannabes.

Here's my start:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10852133@N02/10253512083/#in/set-72157636511841055/lightbox/

Still need a top case and screen for winter. It's my only transportation. AND it's a blast! [no pun intended]

[Gavin]

As others have said: If racing is pushing and helping Brammo with their bikes, keep racing. Plus I know Brian has a team that enjoys it (even if it does eat up their weekends with no extra pay).

But it is expensive. I can see A) cutting back or even B) taking a year off...but...

I like that Brammo is racing the gas bikes. It would be nice to go to bigger events. Racing at Seca in the gas bikes group would be insane. And would open a few eyes.

I have heard a number of times from people asking if Brammo is racing at the Isle of Man...it does seem to be the one event that if Brammo could post a great number, and have bikes to sell (hint to Motoczysz and Mugen--a one off bike isn't getting electric bikes on the streets...though maybe the start-ups don't want to wake up Honda just yet ) well Isle of Man seems to be the race to go to.
But it is hella expensive and the bike would have to be rock solid...though I bet both Eric and Shane would love a trip across the pond. And Brammo would have to figure in the cost of flying me over to report on the event

gah, I don't know. I like that Brammo is racing...at the same time I want the Empulse 2014 model to be a nice leap over the 2013...does racing help or hurt that? And I want an Enertia 2.0 that is two person and has 130 mile range...so I have a lot of wants

And as Shinysideup mentions...a touring style bike would be grand. But I actually see that as the Enertia 2.0. The Enertia with a bit more girth and weight, a bit more battery and a bigger seat.

And as I was riding down the freeway today at 80 mph...yes, come winter I will be wanting a windshield of some type.

G

ps...at 3750 miles now on the Empulse. Next photo event will be the Day of the Dead Parade. Last year I was a Day of the Dead Panda Head...the crowd loved it and I got on two newspapers...sadly I was riding my Piaggio MP3 500 as I was "between" Brammo bikes at the time. This year I will be riding the Empulse for sure. I am going to be a Day of the Dead Sock Monkey Head this year. Paper Mache is fun.



just finished the building...now comes the painting.

[ttxgpfan]

It all depends on what you guys want to accomplish.  I think the best approach that might be cost effective is push the racing of the Empulses and TTXs, particularly in Europe.  Especially if you guys and Zero can play up the competition between the two with out getting anyone's feelings hurt.  So backing a team to run the TTX's at the IOM would be a cheaper(?) way to get that done and get pr in Europe.  You don't need to send an RR up against MotoCzysz or Mugen.  They are in a different business, and you guys are in the business of production bikes.  Send production bikes.  An electric motorcycle (Lightning) won Pikes Peak outright, and Dave Despain couldn't be bothered to mention it on Wind Tunnel instead choosing to ignore the bikes all together.  And what about all that coverage A&R and Ride Apart said they were going to do?  Didn't happen.  If an electric vehicle can win an event outright and not get the recognition deserved then what's the point of showing up to that event?  Sponsor someone on a TTX with tech support or something and let them worry about it.  A TTX getting the best of Zero S's is news.  An RR crushing everyone and their uncle is not.  Unless a factory gas team like Ducati shows back up.  Then, that might be worth the effort and money.

Do you really get less media coverage in the AFM?  Really?  Push the TTX's and grass roots racing there.  That's where current and future AMA guys are.  And be ready for the TTXGP eSS if it actually takes off.  The easier you guys can make getting bikes and support the better.  Either way club racer support should be where it's at.  Then bring the big guys out for the AFM races and NA eRR rounds.  Who's going to cover the other races?  I can't cover the races in the US.  I'm sure as to heck not going to be able to go over seas, and I'm not sure David Herron will either.  Many mags like RoadRacing.com will just post press releases, so that's easy enough I guess.  I would do the closest race to Hong Kong though, as you have interests there.  This year's eRR was not about the RRs or the fastest Zong Shen.  It was about all the other bikes.  Tell the FIM you'll do a full season when Dorna stops pulling the rug out from under the TTXGP, the TTXGP actually gets things done instead of just trying, and there's real competition and a reason to bring the RR's.  Otherwise sponsor teams to race the TTX's in the other rounds.  Let Zong Shen have Europe.  I would much rather have seen you guys show up to the first two World Finals than compete in the 2014 eRR.  Unless Mission Motors wants to step up and create some drama in the World championship next year, because no one else is going to do it.

The bottom line is Lightning and MotoCzysz have now proven they will not show up to a race you guys are at.  And a straight up battle between those three bikes is all anyone wanted.  Given that it seems to me that there is no reason to even hope that Mission Motorcycles will show up to races.  If they prove they will, that is a different story, but until then RRs just ruin the show.  Especially when they run slower than XR1200s at Indy.  You expect the production bikes to be slower, not the RRs.  If they had someone to compete against like Mission, then again, that is a different story. 

Ok, simplify Richard.  RR's race AFM as they have been, and the NA eRR rounds.  Empulse R's and TTX's everywhere else.  It seems like giving teams Empulse R's and TTX's or at least for a significant discount and tech support and getting the bikes in more experienced racer's and race team's hands is way better than running around the world yourselves for little media coverage.  If people want to race against the RR's and/or want to claim their bike is faster, make them come to you and prove it.

[860]

Isle of Man seems to be the race to go to.
But it is hella expensive and the bike would have to be rock solid...though I bet both Eric and Shane would love a trip across the pond.

One of the problems with trying to win at IOM is that you really need an experienced IOM top pro to take your bike down that course.  Other EV teams have been doing that.  Nothing against Eric or Shane, but I don't know if they have raced there before, and it isn't the kind of place you just show up at and run competitive times without lots of practice.  There is a reason why the IOM race was yanked out of the regular European racing series decades ago.   

The other problem is that the IOM got tons of press Before electric bikes broke the Ton.  But now that the Ton has been broken a lot of the attention seems to have dropped off.  At least here in the States anyways.  In Europe everything might be different, but I also though that Brammo was pushing the Plus in Europe, not the Empluse.  (I might be wrong about that too?)

[skuzzle]

While racing obviously builds buzz and leads to improved technology, I'd also like  Brammo's public face (and product) to shift slightly to presenting a bike for general utilitarian AND sport use.

+1  A 50-60 mile range and nearly 5 second 0-60 times will not convince many liter-class bike riders to go electric.  A commuter bike that can keep up on the freeway and have a little extra punch for some fun is something that didn't exist a few years ago.  I love the commute on my E1.  I just wish it had some storage, and a suspension that can handle bumps greater than an inch high.  (also.. fairing, emergency flashers?  Better/aux. lights? ABS...)

[Jeff]

Having attended both gas and electric races, I think you guys should definitely continue to pursue both. 

The AFM stuff has been spectacular just from a pure 'acceptance' factor of pushing electrics into the public view.  I don't think that people racing AFM are going to be your target market (most racers I know are in the market for sub-$5k crashed zip-tied-together 600s), but it gets the name and concept out there.  When I started going to races to watch you guys, people would say "uhhhhh what?  electrics?  hahaha"  And now people tend to go "what?  electrics?  oh, Brammo . . . yeah, they're cool."

The last trackday I went to a few weeks ago, I was expecting the people at the tech station to be totally bamboozled by the Empulse, but the dude took one look at it and went "Oh SWEET a Brammo!  Just like Shelina!"  And that right there is the magical step to get over.

That all being said, being at Laguna for the electric racing series was also spectacular, if for nothing else to see all the people at MotoGP ogling the bikes themselves.  No-one watched the actual eRR race at all, but people (and teams) wandering around the paddock area later in the day were fascinated.  Nearly everybody there was a huge bike nerd, and they were all insanely curious to look at the engineering of all the Empulse variants.  Having the day-glo Icon paintjobs to draw the eye certainly didn't hurt either.  I spent most of my time that day watching crowd reactions to the bikes as they went past, and overhearing conversations of random passersby. 

A lot of people didn't realize the race bikes were electric at all until getting close, which, well is A.) a win from the standpoint of you've made an awesome bike that makes people look at it and it looks like a fearsome race bike, but also B.) maybe not a win from the standpoint of there were plenty of people who casually strolled by the bikes and did not even know they were electric so didn't stop and gawk.  Who knows!

Anyway, if I were to pick a ratio I'd say err more on the side of gas than electric racing, but yes you have to keep doing both.

[protomech]

Lightning got plenty of coverage from A&R. 3 articles about their fastest practice time, fastest QP time, and fastest overall time.
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/tag/lightning-motorcycles/

Not so much from rideapart.

https://www.google.com/search?q="lightning+motorcycles"+2013+"pikes+peak"
20600 results

https://www.google.com/search?q="brammo"+2012+TTXGP+"world+series"
7690 results

[protomech]

Btw: it seems an inexpensive option to stir up some privateer racers might be to create a Brammo Award in AFM, similar to the Hollywood Electrics award in M1GP.

$1000 to the top customer racer, $500 to the 2nd customer racer, $200 to the 3rd customer racer? And pay the first race entry in a year for each customer who shows up at a race to compete. Or pay for a weekend of track lessons to go with an Empulse R purchase.

Total outlay would be pretty minor. $2000-$3000/race. And it would definitely increase electric representation at the races, IMO.

[Richard230]

I think many people are still waiting to see how electric motorcycles compare with the IC technology that they are familiar with.  Running electric against IC gives them that direct comparison, which racing electric against electric doesn't.  So I think, from the standpoint of promoting electric motorcycles, going up against IC bikes and beating them at their own game is the best way to convince current owners that electrics are worth looking into further.  Also, I think that in general, e-racers are likely to be much less expensive to run during a racing season for a privateer, compared with a typical IC race bike and that is worth promoting to a club racer as a way of getting past the initial purchase price. 

Selling a dedicated electric racing motorcycle makes sense to me, as most racers likely wouldn't know how to modify an Empulse or Zero to make it competitive on the track at this point in time.  They would likely make mistakes in trying to up the performance, resulting in racing DNFs, and that would give the bikes a bad name before the necessary technical knowledge becomes more widely available.  I think selling the RR, or something like it, to the public makes sense for a lot of reasons, including increasing the future sales of electric motorcycles.

[Jeff]

But, IMHO,  Brammo needs to tweak its racing heritage a bit by ditching the torture seat (great for hanging off,  but not so much for sitting on), make racks and cases (side and top)  available options, like NOW, and a decent wind-tunnel-tested screen or half fairing (like Parabellum Scout). Then advertise it as a top street-fighter urban do-it-all bike, AND offering unparalleled performance in the twisties for the weekend. Features and videos showing ordinary people using them in everyday ways.

I think that this could be an awesome divergence of the R and E1 models.  For instance, I find the stock seat to be nearly perfect. Haha if anything, my only gripe is that it's not the TTX seat.  I did not even realize it until I sat on the TTX, but the higher seat allows for your knees to fall naturally into the tank cutouts.

If you aimed the R model more at the idiot hooligan, and the E1 at the (slightly) more pragmatic urban commuter, there could start to be some nice niche differences between the two.  More comfortable seat on the E1, option for adjustable rearsets (haha AND a kickstand) on the R, etc etc.

[Brammofan]

I realize that it is largely a question of limited cashflow to do it all, but in a perfect world, I would vote for Brammo to continue participation in all the sports - gas/electric, solely electric, and even to push the competition in the gas/electric motocross. About the only sport I don't need to see Brammo in is the endurance/long distance motosports.  Until the battery tech improves or Brammo develops an easily swappable battery system, it's just not possible.

Selling the RR to the masses is nice to think about but doesn't seem too close to reality - How many 100s of thousands of dollars is each of the RRs worth right now?  The fact that the platform will lead to advancements in the consumer bikes - that's enough right now.

That said - I'm with all you folks who are jonesing for a fairing or at the very least, a windshield, for the Empulse.

[protomech]

Selling the RR to the masses is nice to think about but doesn't seem too close to reality - How many 100s of thousands of dollars is each of the RRs worth right now?  The fact that the platform will lead to advancements in the consumer bikes - that's enough right now.

Counting development effort, they are almost invaluable.

Brammo could probably spin up a market program and sell a dozen of them for $60k and make a small profit.

They could also probably produce a slightly stripped down version with the same powertrain but fit high-end street suspension/tires/wheels/DAQ and sell them at $35k.

Basically the same thing Mission is doing.

Probably a dilution of their attention. But it'd be totally awesome.