Racing Gas vs. Racing Electric?

[flar]

There are too many variables to the question that I don't have a handle on for me to make a recommendation.  I think racing head to head with gas bikes is exciting, but I don't know how much it actually does for publicity and how much it costs to run that program.

One thing I am worried about, though, is that electric motorcycles are still so new that I wonder if we have the necessary data to compare them with gas bikes in terms of classifying them.  It's interesting to see how they stack up against various classes of gas bikes and running them head to head in various classes is interesting data.  But, Brammo recently took a trophy in one of those races.  If that was an appropriate class for the e-bike to race in (due to competitive measures), then that is a great achievement.  On the other hand, if we discover 2 or 3 years down the road that the setup that the RR was running was really a more appropriate match for a different class of motorcycle and, in fact, outclassed the bikes in that race, then I'd hate to be the second place gas bike finisher that had a trophy plucked from me by a ringer.

Or, is the technique of classifying motorcycles more mature than I realize?

I guess what I'm getting at is that, perhaps until we have more data, the appearances in gas bike races be on a demonstration basis and that any wins are not held against the gas bikes (just yet).

[BrammoBrian]

Especially when they run slower than XR1200s at Indy.  You expect the production bikes to be slower, not the RRs.  If they had someone to compete against like Mission, then again, that is a different story. 

Richard - Thanks for the feedback!  For the record, the RRs WERE faster than the XR1200s at Indy.  Steve Rapp set a pole position lap time of 1'55.495, almost a second faster than the rest of the field.  Shane Turpin set a fast lap in our race at 1'53.412.  Also... neither rider on the RRs had ever ridden Indy prior to this race. 

Good point about the lack of competition for the RRs.  We certainly learn more and are pushed harder racing the gas bikes in the AFM.

Regarding the question about classification, the RRs and TTX were classified in their respective classes with the approval of the AFM board of directors prior to the 2013 season based on power:weight ratio.  There were 0 protests to their classification this season.   

[ttxgpfan]

Especially when they run slower than XR1200s at Indy.  You expect the production bikes to be slower, not the RRs.  If they had someone to compete against like Mission, then again, that is a different story. 

Richard - Thanks for the feedback!  For the record, the RRs WERE faster than the XR1200s at Indy.  Steve Rapp set a pole position lap time of 1'55.495, almost a second faster than the rest of the field.  Shane Turpin set a fast lap in our race at 1'53.412.  Also... neither rider on the RRs had ever ridden Indy prior to this race. 

Crap!  I'm sorry.  I am going to throw Mike Edwards under the bus as I got the comment from him.  I should have checked my facts.  Crap.

[00049 (AKA SopFu)]

What a great thread!

I don't disagree with anything anyone has said so far. In my mind Brammo has already proven itself a contender with gas bikes, so I am not sure how much marketing value there is in maintaining the RRs. On the other hand, the technical value in the race program must also be weighed. I am sure there are still a ton of gains to be had through the RR. But for me - the instant-gratification consumer - I would like to see more production bikes racing and being improved upon, like what Zero is doing, and having them race against representative gas bikes. If a prototype is running, make it next year's bike

I third the comments on bags and windshield. I would much prefer to have a bike with the accessories I want/need than to be able to brag at bike night about how many races it has won being ridden by someone else. It's hard to support the racing program when current customer demands are going unmet.

The contingency winning system Promo suggested has promise. A lot of manufacturers do that in car racing - I still get regular reminders from Mazda that to renew my car's registration from back when I used to autocross. It will be a great promotion, at least until people start doing it and Brammo has to pay out That being said, I ain't putting my R on a track in anger (maybe for fun, though).

[ttxgpfan]

Earlier this year Brian was talking about that very thing.  Not sure the status of it though.

[Shinysideup]

What a great thread!

It's hard to support the racing program when current customer demands are going unmet.

+1

+1

AND I have great hopes for Brammomentum in 2014!

[racerfozzy]

Hi Brian, I guess you might recognise my motives..

With the exception of Asia I’d say the global motorcycle market is dominated by performance requirements. With that in mind I’d say Brammo’s current approach is pretty close to the mark in terms of what’s required to grow their brand in the EV market.

The consumer issues with regard to ‘E’ motorcycles seem to be; Performance (range/power), noise and smell. (Aftermarket can sales, and glassy eyed reminiscing about the smell of Castrol R and 2 strokes.. It’s all got to be about educating the consumer. If you ask gas bike riders how often on a daily basis they ride beyond the range of one tank full of gas it will quickly reveal that most don’t. That’s going to knock a real hole in the ‘range’ argument…for those that do then they’ll just have to wait a little longer to join the revolution.

•   If you want to prove E-motorcycle performance to the consumer you need to race against and beat gas-bikes…If you out-perform gas bikes people will care less about how they sound and smell. The sound an Ebike makes as it wups the living daylights out of a screaming multi-cylinder will quickly become as evocative as any open-pipe-special…   

•   If you want to improve the global image of E motorbikes you’ve got to have a recognised world championship following a well recognised format.(eRoadRacing)When people see BIG organisations like the FIM behind something they start to believe.

•   Globally recognised, historic races like Pikes Peak and the Isle of Man TT will further cement public opinion but to a wider less ‘savvy’ audience, it will engage people who don’t normally follow racing on a weekly basis. The TT is always covered on National news channels. When I talk to ‘norms’ about my racing the TT is always the event they recognise..

Not go racing? Are you mad? J It’s the most fun and best value R&D you’re going to get and EVERYBODY cares! Racing proves the breed, only war improves tech at a faster rate than racing..and sometimes they’re not so very different.

I guess the question should really be; ‘How much money have we got? If we can't do them all, which ones are most important to the future growth of Brammo?’

In terms of cost…you can probably rely on some of your competitors to improve the global image by cherry picking major event wins like Lightning at Pikes Peak, they’ve probably done more for the image of electric bikes than their own image alone. For epically expensive events like the TT you could rely on well placed local partners who already have the resource and expertise to absorb some of the costs for you.(J)

For this poll I’d say, from the outside looking in, that the most important thing for Brammo at this still early stage is to race against and beat gas bikes…

However, you will be kicked out soon. If you make a habit of beating the gas bikes they wont be quite as welcoming as they have been. In the UK they already wont let us play, except for a few special cases..(running scared I reckon ) So you need contingency and the other points cover that. You’re going to have to find a way to do them all.

Fozzy
Darvillracing.com (UK)

[racerfozzy]

Crap!  I'm sorry.  I am going to throw Mike Edwards under the bus as I got the comment from him.  I should have checked my facts.  Crap.

Mike usually checks his facts pretty thoroughly already so it may have been a mis-read but I'd certainly support throwing him under a bus if he hasn't been punted off the track by one already.... <ducks and runs>

[protomech]

Hey racefozzy. What a great opening post : )

The consumer issues with regard to ‘E’ motorcycles seem to be; Performance (range/power), noise and smell. (Aftermarket can sales, and glassy eyed reminiscing about the smell of Castrol R and 2 strokes.. It’s all got to be about educating the consumer. If you ask gas bike riders how often on a daily basis they ride beyond the range of one tank full of gas it will quickly reveal that most don’t. That’s going to knock a real hole in the ‘range’ argument…for those that do then they’ll just have to wait a little longer to join the revolution.

In the US it's may be a little more mixed. We certainly have our share of commuters and people who go on short daily trips that would be well-suited to single-charge EV range. But much of the US market is sold on the perception, and not infrequently the reality, of the blast into the wild unknown.

Overcoming this perception gap will be a major hurdle. Curiously, deployment of public charging stations seem to drive EV sales even though the stations are somewhat infrequently used; people focus on the 1% or 2% type of scenarios where they would need to charge on the go.

Not go racing? Are you mad? J It’s the most fun and best value R&D you’re going to get and EVERYBODY cares! Racing proves the breed, only war improves tech at a faster rate than racing..and sometimes they’re not so very different.

I don't doubt BrammoBrian and his team have spent many a night slaving, I mean working, away in the trenches. Competition, whether against armed foes or a similarly mad set of racing competitors, is fantastic motivation.

For this poll I’d say, from the outside looking in, that the most important thing for Brammo at this still early stage is to race against and beat gas bikes…

However, you will be kicked out soon. If you make a habit of beating the gas bikes they wont be quite as welcoming as they have been. In the UK they already wont let us play, except for a few special cases..(running scared I reckon ) So you need contingency and the other points cover that. You’re going to have to find a way to do them all.

There certainly will be a push back against electric bikes if they are perceived to give undue advantage. For example, when Shane Turpin won the Formula 40 middleweight race, he may find that next year Brammo is invited to enter their Empulse RR bike into the Formula 40 heavyweight race. And that may be the case for a while; if Brammo starts to consistently win races, then the bikes will be shifted up a class. So don't expect to see consistent outright wins until they're competing at the top level, and even there they will be invited to race in a class of their own.

Noone really knows exactly how to compare gas and electric bikes yet; so it's great that the AFM and Brammo (and hopefully soon Zero privateers as well) will be blazing a trail on identifying competitive classes. The AFM has a huge number of classes already, and tons of bikes on grid.. so there's lots of granularity to place the electric bikes in classes where they can compete but not dominate (yet).

[BrammoBrian]

Hi Brian, I guess you might recognise my motives..

Hi Chris, Yes - motives are duly noted!  Imagine that... a racer that thinks racing is a good investment!

[BrammoBrian]

There certainly will be a push back against electric bikes if they are perceived to give undue advantage. For example, when Shane Turpin won the Formula 40 middleweight race, he may find that next year Brammo is invited to enter their Empulse RR bike into the Formula 40 heavyweight race. And that may be the case for a while; if Brammo starts to consistently win races, then the bikes will be shifted up a class. So don't expect to see consistent outright wins until they're competing at the top level, and even there they will be invited to race in a class of their own.

Noone really knows exactly how to compare gas and electric bikes yet; so it's great that the AFM and Brammo (and hopefully soon Zero privateers as well) will be blazing a trail on identifying competitive classes. The AFM has a huge number of classes already, and tons of bikes on grid.. so there's lots of granularity to place the electric bikes in classes where they can compete but not dominate (yet).

The Empulse RR is currently classified as a Middleweight, but I don't think moving it to a Heavyweight designation would make much difference in the results.  Shane would have won this class as well as the times shown don't factor in the delayed start for the Middleweights.  The tougher challenge will be moving up to Formula Pacific, which is the headline class for AFM.  I estimate that we would finish in around 10th place in FP given the current level of competitiveness, which is still pretty respectable.  This is essentially an unlimited class, so there really couldn't be any complaints or protests.  If you had a MotoGP bike or turbine powered jet bike, you could run it in FP as long as it was deemed safe by the tech crew (who, BTW, are the same crew that has done tech for many of the West Coast TTXGP events in the past). 

In general, I feel like we have been welcome with open arms into the AFM and I can't see them re-classifying us just because we win some races.  I think they're happy to have us there participating as a professional team with professional riders.  I think there's far more interest in seeing what this technology can ultimately do at the racetrack than there is a negative sentiment around "protecting the sanctity of the sport as we know it".

BTW - Thanks for all the great comments on this thread.  This is really enlightening to read.  Especially interesting is the belief that somehow our racing activities affects the availability of product accessories and options.  I promise that it does not, but now can appreciate the negative (or at least mixed) message that can be sent through the program. 

[flar]

In general, I feel like we have been welcome with open arms into the AFM and I can't see them re-classifying us just because we win some races.  I think they're happy to have us there participating as a professional team with professional riders.  I think there's far more interest in seeing what this technology can ultimately do at the racetrack than there is a negative sentiment around "protecting the sanctity of the sport as we know it".

Hi Brian,

Take this with a grain of salt that I'm not a big race fan, though motorcycle racing is one of the few motorsports that I take time to watch, on an occasional basis.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the sanctity of the sport", but the reason that there are classes in the sport is to find niches where riders can compete on their riding skills.  If there was no concern for that then there would only ever be a single class - bring any bike and race it and there will be a winner.  Even within the ranks of gas bikes, they break out various formats into separate classes (for instance, twins).  The reason for that isn't necessarily "how dare they violate our concept of what a motorcycle is" so much as "OK, that type of bike performs differently than this type, so lets put those bikes into an apples-to-apples class".

The concern is that HP/weight doesn't mean the same thing for electric motorcycles as it does for gassers so there will need to be some trial and error to figure out equivalent performance metrics for both gas and electric bikes in order to class them so that rider skill is the dominant factor in any race.  But, once that comparative formula is known, then any "sanctity" will simply be modified to understand how electric bikes fit in with existing knowledge of gas bike formats.

One thing about AFM, when they run multiple classes of bikes in the same race, you could be in your own class, but still running right past bikes that most people wouldn't expect you to be in the same league with.  Certainly, the start performance is eye catching when you jump 5 or 6 places before you even get out of the staging area - without even having to work the throttle in anticipation.  If you are passing everything on the track even if they aren't in your class, then spectators and riders will still find that exciting.  The commentators can help there as well if they point out the relative standings "Shane, on his XX hp electric bike just ran right by the leader in the YY class with twice the power" (or something like that).

Just as most race fans are aware of how 750's stack against 600's and liter bikes, they will come to understand how electric bikes stack against gas bikes, even if they aren't in the same class.  You don't need to show up in the same standings of the same class, as long as there is good visibility of how the standings match.  And I think the excitement of being on the pavement at the same time is the primary excitement that you get from head-to-head racing against ICE.

[ttxgpfan]

Crap!  I'm sorry.  I am going to throw Mike Edwards under the bus as I got the comment from him.  I should have checked my facts.  Crap.

Mike usually checks his facts pretty thoroughly already so it may have been a mis-read but I'd certainly support throwing him under a bus if he hasn't been punted off the track by one already.... <ducks and runs>

Yeah, I haven't found the quote so I don't have any reason to throw MIke from the train, but your my kind of guy.

[ttxgpfan]

Not go racing? Are you mad? J It’s the most fun and best value R&D you’re going to get and EVERYBODY cares! Racing proves the breed, only war improves tech at a faster rate than racing..and sometimes they’re not so very different.

In terms of cost…you can probably rely on some of your competitors to improve the global image by cherry picking major event wins like Lightning at Pikes Peak, they’ve probably done more for the image of electric bikes than their own image alone. For epically expensive events like the TT you could rely on well placed local partners who already have the resource and expertise to absorb some of the costs for you.(J)

See, not I'm not crazy.  Well, not that crazy.