Author Topic: (Very) Early Observations  (Read 4477 times)

Auslander

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(Very) Early Observations
« on: April 19, 2014, 11:32:51 PM »
As a new owner of only a week now, I'm giving my Plus its first full charge, from an indicated 10% remaining.

Plugged in @ ~1730, full charge would be 8 hours, no?  2330?  As of 20:00 the display showed five hours remaining, which would put charge ending at 0100, 9.5 hours total charge time.

However, checked a few minutes ago @ 2325 (I know, unscientific, cutting it short by 5 minutes!) it's only at 44% and indicated over four hours left!  If that holds true and doesn't extend out any further it will complete at 0325... ten hours to full charge.

Anyone else experience this?  Mentally I currently have this filed as "That just doesn't sound right".  The day I bought it home I charged from 60% and it took much longer to charge than the display was indicating at the time it was plugged in, and about every two hours that I checked, the time-to-complete kept extending out.

(Also, does the tail light *have* to stay on?  Likely 10+ hours to charge, 10+ hours of burn time seems a little unnecessary.)

Thoughts, anyone?

protomech

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2014, 12:03:12 AM »
That does seem excessive.

Try flipping to the detailed charging screen on the dash display, see page 36 in the owner's manual.
http://brammo.com/documents/2012%20Brammo%20-%20Enertia%20Owner's%20Manual%20-%20EN,%20FR,%20DE%20,IT,%20ES%20-%20web.pdf

This display will show the DC charging amps going into the battery pack. The Enertia Plus should charge at around 8 amps, which is about a 9 hour charge on a 70 Ah pack.
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Auslander

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2014, 12:24:40 AM »
Thank you for the uber-rapid reply, Protomech.

It shows it's currently charging @ 3 amps.  I'm using an extension cord to drop from the ceiling where the garage door opener is powered.  The cord's 12g, rated for 15 amps.

(Side note, to get to that screen I need to hold both dash buttons for about 2 seconds, the same combo used to set the clock, holding the start switch doesn't affect anything.)

:EDIT:

Moved to the one other socket in the garage (it's a rental, I swear I'd have more if it were up to me) and it's sitting at 8A now.  I'll come back and update next time I do a full charge from ground zero and report back if it behaves any better.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 12:31:58 AM by Auslander »

Auslander

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2014, 03:29:37 AM »
OK, I kinda take that back.  It's now 0324, rate is back down to 3A.

It's only at 64%, ten hours in.  High and low voltages are 3.829 and 3.820, and it shows 91V total.  At this rate I'm looking at... what, almost 20 hours to charge fully?

I've owned the bike for all of a week, and I'm not sure if I'm going to be regretting this.  I found out today that the local dealer is not going to be carrying them any longer, someone else is but it's not inked yet so there's no mention of who.  After MotoGP someone from Brammo apparently stopped by and picked up the leftover units that were on the floor (or something similar to that).  Wondering if I'm going to be stuck with something that's apparently underperforming.

Auslander

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2014, 09:40:58 AM »
0932, 16 hours, 94% charge.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 10:44:42 AM by Auslander »

protomech

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2014, 11:00:04 AM »
Yep, give Brammo a call and they'll get you sorted out.

Could be the circuit it's plugged into in the garage.. the charger might derate if it detects an extreme voltage sag. If you have a multimeter or a tool like a Kill-A-Watt it may show you if anything unusual is going on.

If you have a chance you could try moving to another circuit in the house, or better yet a circuit outside the house if the house wiring is suspect.

It also could be a problem with a faulty charger or cable. I remember the Enertia had an unfortunately noisy fan that cooled the charger while it was operating. Do you hear a fan come on when you plug in?

Edit: with a bit more thought, I bet the fan is probably dead and the charger is derating due to high temperatures. The charger is mounted under the seat - look at Gerhard's thread where he replaces the fan.

If you don't hear a noisy fan kick on when plugged in and the charger gets very hot to the touch (careful touching the exterior) after a few minutes, then that'd definitely *be the cause.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 03:11:18 PM by protomech »
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BrammoBrian

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2014, 11:41:44 AM »
Thoughts, anyone?

Auslander,

You are correct that the bike is not charging properly.  The specs on the charge time is correct for a properly functioning bike.  The current shown on your display is far too low - which is why it is taking so long.  Please contact Brammo service directly. 

I'm very sorry that you are having this problem.  I can promise that we stand behind the quality of our products, so you don't need to fret about getting this sorted. 

Protomech has an interesting idea about the charger regulating the current to keep from overheating, but you would initially see currents in the 9-12 Amp range before it got too hot and began to regulate.

Auslander

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2014, 11:53:42 AM »
Brian,

Thank you for chiming in!  I'm taking in to consideration protomech's comments, and am going to try to pin down the source locally, the outlets, and see what I find.  The one I'm in right now has a 15A breaker on it, and the Brammo charges below 80% of that, no risk of overloading the circuit.  However, the actual load it can deliver isn't tested easily with just a meter and load present.  I may have to go to the other outlet, which unfortunately is in the back corner and will require a slightly longer extension cord (and also have me not do laundry when charging, #firstworld problems, right?).  On the current outlet, I did briefly plug in a mini-fridge which kicked on immediately, and did not see any sag in voltage, so at least that much we can take as a good sign

I managed to use up most of the charge yesterday, I'm going to try to run it down further tonight and see what I can determine.  Will report back after next charge cycle.

protomech:
I do hear the fan come out during charging, it seems once it is on it stays on, even well in to balancing.  The charger does get warm (I believe it's on top?  I tend to feel most warmth there, but have not pulled the plastics yet) but nothing that would risk melting/warping the bodywork, and again, the fan does come on and run consistently through the remainder of the time AC is supplied.

Brian:  Speaking of the fan coming on, I was going to replace the rear bulbs with LEDs, but the lens doesn't want to come off.  Any trick to that?  At the 6 o'clock position there's what looks like an indent for a lock tab, but I didn't want to get aggressive on that if it's not the key to unlocking the lens.  Or, do you know the bulb size/spec for the turn signals and brake/tail lights?

BrammoBrian

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2014, 09:59:58 PM »
Yeah... it sounds like the charger is working fine if you're getting current displayed on the dash and the fans running.  I agree that testing at a new outlet is a good idea. Charger is, in fact, under the upper body panel on the Enertia and Enertia Plus rather than under the seat, like on the Empulse. 

I haven't ever attempted to get at the bulb in one of these turnsignals, so I can't help you there.  Maybe somebody else here has.  I've only replaced the full turnsignal with a complete LED aftermarket unit. 

Auslander

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2014, 01:39:58 AM »
Adam tracked me down to request logs.  I wanted to try another charge cycle; I gave it a good run at lunch to bring it down further, and plugged it in, new cord, new socket.  It was initially very encouraging, hovering around 8 to 9 amps.  I checked back what I can only approximate as "about an hour" later, and it was back down to 3 amps.  I started in the low 40% range, should've finished by 2230 tonight, at which point it was at 60%.  Pulled logs, emailed them off.

The turn signals are easy to get in to (one screw, bottom, and it has a fixed tab on the outside, so 'peel' from inside to outside), it's the actual tail section with the brake/tail light I was trying to get in to.  SV forums didn't have much to go, most deal strictly with replacing with squidly LED strips. :)

If Adam and I can find some resolution here I'll post just for a record others may search/refer back to later.

BrammoBrian

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2014, 09:02:43 AM »
Adam tracked me down to request logs.  I wanted to try another charge cycle; I gave it a good run at lunch to bring it down further, and plugged it in, new cord, new socket.  It was initially very encouraging, hovering around 8 to 9 amps.  I checked back what I can only approximate as "about an hour" later, and it was back down to 3 amps.  I started in the low 40% range, should've finished by 2230 tonight, at which point it was at 60%.  Pulled logs, emailed them off.

The turn signals are easy to get in to (one screw, bottom, and it has a fixed tab on the outside, so 'peel' from inside to outside), it's the actual tail section with the brake/tail light I was trying to get in to.  SV forums didn't have much to go, most deal strictly with replacing with squidly LED strips. :)

If Adam and I can find some resolution here I'll post just for a record others may search/refer back to later.

Awesome.  We'll learn a lot from looking at the log files.  Sounds like the charger is regulating current for some reason.  Perhaps it has a faulty temp sensor and believes that it is too hot or the batteries could be communicating that they are too hot to charge.   In any case, I'm glad you're in contact with Adam as he'll get it sorted.  Again - sorry that this has been your first experience with Brammo, but I hope we can get past this point and just get updates on your trips and mods here!  8)

FrankH

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2014, 01:33:13 PM »
The turn signals are easy to get in to (one screw, bottom, and it has a fixed tab on the outside, so 'peel' from inside to outside), it's the actual tail section with the brake/tail light I was trying to get in to.  SV forums didn't have much to go, most deal strictly with replacing with squidly LED strips. :)

I've replaced the whole tail light with a smoked-cover LED version. So I have the old one at hand! You can remove the tail light by unscrewing the bolt from behind, under the seat cover. Once you do that, you should be able to remove the light and get to its rear, where you'll find two light grey bulb fittings. You can remove those by turning and pulling (bajonet-like). Then you can replace those bulbs with LED ones.

Auslander

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2014, 01:51:15 PM »
Thank you greatly, Frank!  I would've gotten there eventually after I exhausted all other attempts at removing the lens.

protomech

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2014, 06:27:52 AM »
Any resolution to your charging speed reduction, Auslander?
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Auslander

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2014, 05:28:54 PM »
Any resolution to your charging speed reduction, Auslander?

Negative, Ghost Rider. :/

Once Brammo sifted through a pile of charging logs and determined it was the charging unit, they sent one out to the dealer.  They were two weeks out on bookings, which put it to Memorial Day weekend, I was gone then, etc, so it wasn't until this past Saturday I got it in.

Background: The bike will charge at 8 to 9 amps for roughly 22 minutes, drop to 3 amps, then 1 amp around the 25 minute mark.

Saturday, I told the service writer this when I bought it in, that the batteries were at 40%, plenty of room to go so if they needed to test multiple times, it could be done.  Shortly after I left I noticed the charge was like 36%, lower than when I came in.  I charged it for 45 minutes, and saw the same behavior.  Called the dealer (Saturday, still), talked to the other service writer on the phone and explained what happened, said he'd talk to the tech.  They called back yesterday (Tuesday) to tell me that apparently the tech left it plugged in for 10 or 15 minutes, saw it charging, called it  done.  So, they weren't thorough enough, and the problem still exists.  I sent logs on Saturday to Brammo, and a follow-up email last night, still have not heard back.  Finally able to parse the log files myself, I see the dealer instead charged it for 3 minutes.  Three.  Not 25.  Not even "10 or 15".

That answers your question.  It's all downhill from here.

(Not really kidding.)



I've had other issues and experiences: body plastic is almost fragile compared to other bikes, screw holes too close to the edges and not enough thickness around them allows them to crack easily (ask me how I know!), one of the brass nut-serts in the frame for the side panel bolts spins in place, so one side panel cannot be removed, etc (reinstalling the bottom body plastic *without* removing the side piece? Can be done, but a total PITA). I mailed Brammo's tech and CCd the local rep about these and other experiences and got exactly zero response to that email.  If the side panel ever needs to come off I'm wondering if a dealer is going to bill me for something that's a factory defect.  I get that Brammo is a boutique builder, but so is Ferrari, really.  The Enertia+ has about the same top end and range (tho not at the same time, of course) as a DRZ400, but costs over 30% more.  The DRZ's plastics are far more resilient, and for a bike that is mostly machine-assembled and spot-checked, things like stripped bolts or inserts don't happen.  A handmade bike, you'd think someone would notice.

Optimistic that the charger would work, I ordered Givi hard cases to make commuting easier on me.  However, I had to order from a dealer in Colorado, since my local 'dealer' stopped carrying Brammo about 4 days after I purchased mine.  It's been over a week, the cases haven't even made it to Colorado yet.  For some reason they have to go to the Colorado dealer who can then send them on to me, so I pay shipping twice on them, rather than just once, which almost doubled the shipping fees.  I have a bit trouble accepting that I live in a world where Givi cases are going to wind up costing almost as much as BMW cases.

Pardon my disposition here, but this who thing is starting to fucking suck.  Saturday I emailed two charge logs to Brammo, one from the dealer to see if they could tell how long they charged for, and the current one (45 minutes in) where the draw was back down to 1 amp.  Last night I emailed Brammo asking if they had ideas for our next course of action.  No response to either of those emails.

Thanks to the log reader I can see for instance a charge log from 06.2013 (a year ago, well before my recent purchase of it), 8 hours on charge, the bike went from 76% to 88%.  Point here: Someone should've noticed before it was sold.  The earliest charge log, 02.2013, shows it on charge for 2.5 days.  The highest value shown is 90.9% (I suspect this is a bug with something, somewhere, more below).  The 2nd charge log, 23 hours, same thing.  Next entry is the 06.2013 I referenced above.  Interesting, is a snip like this at the end of a charge log:
SOC 90.9% (100.0, 100.0, 38.8, 38.8, 98.8, 98.8, 100.0, 100.0)

Does that look right?  Maybe Enspector isn't reading something right from the Enertia's log format.  That is from a charge that started 04.12.14 @ 2229, those values above were taken at 04.13.14 @ 1105, 12 hours on AC.  In some other logs, the numbers for positions 3, 4, 5, and 6 (where the non-100.0 values are above) all show 0.0 when SOC is close to something like 40%.

I ran a charge after the dealer trip on Saturday, after I interrupted to pull the logs, that ran from 1558 to 1515 the next day, just shy of 24 hours.  The log viewer shows 90.9% though the bike's dashboard showed 100%, hence my suspicion that something may be amiss with the log parser.  The above oddball values (38.8, etc) are exactly the same as the snip above, in the last log entry prior to unplugging.  Does this represent bad batteries?  Did I get a lemon?  WTH?


BTW, Protomech, at least for Enertia+ logs, using your log viewer, position 17 looks to be amps.  I can see the graph initially jump to 9, then drop to 1 or 2 and hold there the duration of the time AC is plugged in.