Author Topic: My Dreams Come True? A Production Electric Harley?(photos and article links inc)  (Read 10323 times)

protomech

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My guess is $17-20k in production quantities of 1000+ (compared to Empulse, for example, it has a more expensive motor controller = more $$$$, smaller battery = probably less $$, LED lighting = more $, reduction right-angle transmission vs multispeed transmission = less $$).

But it's a somewhat moot point. IF Harley goes to production in 2016 with something based on the LiveWire, it will almost certainly use a different battery configuration and support DC charging. I'm sure H-D is surveying would-be customers during the tour regarding the range and price points that would trigger a purchase.
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Mithion

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Richard230

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Here is a short ride review of the LiveWire by Susan Carpenter.  I note that she says the bike's range is about 30 miles when in "power" mode and H-D claims the LiveWire weighs 360 pounds.  Level 2 charging requires 3.5 hours to fully recharge. Top speed is at least 92mph. Otherwise no more new info:  http://www.autoblog.com/2014/06/26/harley-davidson-livewire-first-ride-review-video/
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

protomech

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I'm not sure her weight claim is correct. Virtually every other article lists the weight as 450-460 pounds.

The range continues to puzzle me.

Beyond Brian's guesses in this forum, charge time is listed at about 10 hours on 110V. Assuming 1 kW charger, that means an 8-10 kWh pack. That also fits with the weight, which is similar to the Empulse and likely means a similar-weight pack.

It's possible some drivetrain component - motor, motor controller, right-angle gearset, wide belt drive - is very inefficient. I would be a little surprised at the first two due to Mission Motors' involvement.

It's possible the reported range is under similar sporty riding conditions that show 40-60 miles of range on an Empulse or ZF11.4 Zero, or 68 miles for the SR w/ Power Tank. Lots of strong acceleration and braking.
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00049 (AKA SopFu)

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My test ride is scheduled for 3:30. I'll let you all know how it goes.

BTW, my Empulse is plugged into 110V at the Harley museum. :)

Review and pics will be posted later today.
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Gavin

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Nice...I am going when they come to Albuquerque...did they have a tour dates list?,

G

00049 (AKA SopFu)

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Just got home, 15 hours after I left this morning. I will write a full review tomorrow, but in a nutshell the Livewire was neat but after riding a production bike with similar specs for a year, I felt a little underwhelmed. A lot of that is I am just used to the Empulse, and didn't really get a chance to learn the differences in throttle mapping. I am still glad Harley is pushing the technology. Off to bed for me for now.
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Gavin

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Did you ride your bike to the event? I plan to take mine...not to challenge, but just because it is my daily ride.
I hope Harley doesn't frown on that...

I imagine Brammo and Zero riders are likely to be among the people testing the Harley as we are the people most interested in electric bikes...

G

I do imagine it has good balance being so small and having the batteries that low...but then the Empulse is pretty sweet at balance too.

00049 (AKA SopFu)

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You bet I road my Empulse to the event! It was the longest one-day ride I've done yet. I consumed about 20 kwh of L2 charging, and about 3 kwh of L1 charging at the HD museum. The only issue was my ChargePoint RFID card must be dead because none of the stations were accepting it. Total trip distance was 204 miles per my Garmin. My last leg was 53 miles and I arrived home with 3% remaining. Perfect  ;D

On to the LiveWire. It was great to go the Milwaukee event because the Engineers that actually worked on the bike were there. Most of them had mentioned that they had riden an Empulse and were interested in my impressions of their version. They are not going on tour, so the rest of the stops are going to be dealing with partially-trained Marketing monkeys. (In full disclosure: I was a Marketing major.) The focus of the project was to show consumers how good an electric motorcycle could be if battery technology could support the performance, and Harley's opinion is right now it can't. But I suspect they believe battery tech will soon be their definition of ready . Because of this attitude, the bike was designed around being a good demo bike without acknowledging the battery's limitations. This means no on-board charger, and tiny battery. I did pop the plug cover on the display bike to see what it was, and it looks like a MIL-SPEC connection.

It looks like they went with higher end suspension components. They covered everything else, so no seeing the high power electronics. I did try to ask some specific questions and got stonewalled. I asked what kind of cells, and the engineers had no info to give. I asked about Mission Motors, and again, no comment. I did ask specfically about battery overheating at highway speeds and everyone was adamant that it wasn't a problem.

On to the test ride. The reach is a lot longer than the Empulse, but leg position felt about the same. The bike felt heavier despite being 10 pounds lighter, and the steering felt much lighter (too much, IMO). The touchscreen was interesting, but hard to use while moving, and the optional information wasn't partiuclarly useful. I wish I would have noted the odometer before I left, but it's not on the home screen and I didn't discover the odometer until after I started messing with the screen. I got on the bike with about 90% SOC. The two modes offered ~26 and ~53 miles for power and range modes, respectively. I selected power mode for my test ride. There is no option to switch modes once selected without turning the bike off. GoogleMaps' estimate has the ride at 4.3 miles, and I used about 8% of SOC. One of the riders used 12%. I esimate my Empulse would have used 4% or less with the type of riding we were doing.

Riding a direct drive was nice. I didn't miss the transmission lash of my Empulse as much as I thought I would, surprisingly. The throttle tuning was new and I never felt really comfortable with it. Power would come on very slow, but once moving it was constant and predictable. I suspect they would go more agressive with the production version when they don't have to worry as much about people crashing their demos. (Someone did crash in the round-a-bout in my test ride group.) They said no wheelies in the pre-ride briefing, and I asked if it would do one, and they confirmed. I didn't want to be the one to test that aspect...I would bet the Empulse is faster through 1st gear, but the LiveWire would take the lead shortly after. I wish we could have gotten the bikes to highway speed to see the difference there, but no such luck. They have regen mapped to bring the bike to a stop, although it is very predictable.

My favorite part of the bike? The sounds. Somehow the bike has two different notes. While cruising, it sounds much like the Empulse. But accelerating or decelerating produces a hydrolic whir. Aparently that is an unitended consequence of the angle gear. It was pretty cool.

So in conclusion, this engineering exercise has similar performance to an Empulse, but can't charge and can't go more than 25 miles. I think it does a great job in putting electric motorycles in the public's eye, and showing the type of performance that can be expected if someone buys a Brammo or Zero. In my (biased) opinion, the Empulse is much more refined, but Harley put forth a really good effort. When Harley is ready to move electrons, I think they will give Brammo and Zero a run for their money.  8)

I'll do my best to answer any questions the best way an un-paid test rider can.  ;) Pics will be posted later today.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 08:56:48 AM by 00049 (AKA SopFu) »
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00049 (AKA SopFu)

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Gotta love iPhone pics!

The charge port:



Fully adjustable forks:



Looks like a reduction gear?



Here's my dash as I got home:



And me on the Livewire. Yes, I brought tennis shoes since I figured I'd be walking around a lot while my bike was charging. Great decision, too.


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oobflyer

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Thanks for the great review and pics!
Don't you think they will have to modify the design to make room for more batteries in the production version?

protomech

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Yes .. part of why I'm surprised they went with such a small battery. The entire LiveWire project smells like $$$$$$.
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00049 (AKA SopFu)

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Thanks for the great review and pics!
Don't you think they will have to modify the design to make room for more batteries in the production version?

I think they won't be making a production version until battery technology improves enough to give them some minimum range number in a package they think will sell.
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protomech

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I'm curious what makes the bike so heavy @ 460 lbs. I suspect the battery is much smaller than speculated here given the range.. perhaps as little as 5 kWh or less.

Consider:

Zero S 12.5 kWh = 444 lbs
Brammo Empulse 9.3 kWh = 460 lbs
H-D LiveWire Concept 5? 8? kWh = 460 lbs
Mission R 12 kWh = 490 lbs

Definitely seems like other bikes offer significantly more battery capacity for a given weight. Keep in mind too that the H-D concept does not have an onboard charger (reportedly)..

Is it the motor? The reduction gearing? The housing? Is H-D using cells with high power and low energy density?
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Richard230

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I read one report that said the bike weighed 360 pounds.  That would sound more reasonable, considering the small battery pack and lack of an on-board charger.  Perhaps we are just dealing with typos and misinformation that is being circulated around the internet without being vetted?

Either that or there is really a Iron-Barrel Sportster engine under all of that plastic.   :o
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.