Author Topic: My Dreams Come True? A Production Electric Harley?(photos and article links inc)  (Read 11373 times)

BrammoBrian

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Agree, I think 9-10 kWh battery capacity is right.

52 ft-lb = 70 Nm. 70 Nm at 8000 RPM is 59 kW, or 79 hp .. so it has only fallen off slightly in torque by the peak power point. Very linear.

Very much in the Empulse / Zero category of bikes, as opposed to say Lightning / Mission / Brutus. I expect it'll be quicker than the Empulse, on par with the Zero SR.

Wait a minute, Protomech... has anyone EVER confirmed that a Zero SR achieves their ridiculous 3.3s 0-60mph claim in an independent test?  If so, please point me to the article.  Let's do our maths again and realize that it would take over 60kW of motor to achieve the rear wheel torque and thus thrust (acceleration) the Empulse and Empulse R achieves with our user selectable final drive ratios (aka "the gearbox").  This is what it appears that HD have done with their 59kW direct drive/bevel gear solution.

All that said, I still applaud HD for taking a step to secure their future customer rather than simply doing the same thing they've always done for the past 50 years.  The bike looks very well thought through and with any luck, I'll get a chance to try it when it goes on tour.  I think Harley will need to give people SOME indication of price, or they will not get very reliable feedback.

protomech

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I don't know of any instrumented tests of the SR ZF11.4. But there is a test of the SR ZF14.2.

Cycleworld tested the SR ZF14.2 bike, and recorded a 4.3 second 0-60 time (compare to their earlier test of a 2013 Empulse R at 4.8 seconds, and a 2013 S ZF11.4 at 5.2 seconds). That's about 10% slower than Zero's claim of 3.9 seconds - so it's possible Zero was mis-representing the production bike's performance, or used a lighter rider than CycleWorld, or the tests were conducted slightly differently. Some 0-60 tests allow a 1 foot of rollout "cheat" .. others start as soon as the vehicle begins movement.

Assuming CycleWorld used a 180 pound rider with gear, and Zero's weight specifications are accurate. The total bike + rider weigh 632 pounds. The SR ZF11.4 bike + rider should weigh 7.1% less, which should reduce 0-60 time with CycleWorld's rider to 4.0 seconds.

Again, that's slower than Zero's claims .. but noticeably quicker than either the 2013 Empulse R or the 2013 Zero S ZF11.4 tested by the same publication earlier.

***

Here's the paper math:

The difference between 3.3 and 3.9 seconds for Zero's claim when adding the Power Tank is between 0.51 to 0.69 seconds, depending on how much rounding you allow. That's a 15% to 21% increase in elapsed time, which all else equal corresponds to a 15% to 21% increase in total vehicle mass.

Zero claims a 45 pound increase in weight with the Power Tank, which means the total vehicle including rider should weigh between 214 and 300 pounds. Obviously incorrect. The expected difference between the two battery configurations should probably be closer to 7-10% depending on rider weight, or perhaps an increase from 3.6 to 3.9 seconds.

Peak power doesn't matter for a 0-60 test if it arrives after 60 mph; motor torque curve and gearing matter.
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Shinysideup

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« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 01:27:14 PM by Shinysideup »

Mithion

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The Wired articles states that Harley-

"Harley did most of the chassis work—it’s been building bikes since the dawn of internal combustion, so it’s got that down pat—but brought in experts like Mission Motors for help with things like the motor controller."

Looks like we were right if that is true.



Gavin

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Mission Motors could be a very smart player in the field. They separated from making bikes and just make components. So they could be a supplier to many companies.

They are working with Honda (well Mugen, but....) and now Harley. They could end up making quite a bit of money without having to sell bikes....

I am impressed with the components they are turning out. And again, if Harley is using Mission Motor components, does that make the LiveWire a high voltage motorcycle? I know I want that motor the High Voltage motor that is in the RR :)


G
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 02:40:22 PM by Gavin »

Richard230

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There is speculation on another forum that the right-angle gearbox uses a reduction ratio to increase rear wheel torque upon takeoff.  That would make sense for a bike that will be used to make a big public splash.  Also, the CW video shot of the instrument screen shows a pack voltage of 300V, which I assume will allow the motor to spin fast to obtain a good top speed, while having relatively low gearing.  I think H-D and Mission have done everything that they can to boost this bike's performance (at the expense of range) so as to get good performance numbers and provide thrills for the short test rides that they will be providing to the public and to publication test riders.  It all makes a lot of marketing sense to me and no one ever said that H-D doesn't know how to market their products.
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Mithion

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There is speculation on another forum that the right-angle gearbox uses a reduction ratio to increase rear wheel torque upon takeoff.  That would make sense for a bike that will be used to make a big public splash.  Also, the CW video shot of the instrument screen shows a pack voltage of 300V, which I assume will allow the motor to spin fast to obtain a good top speed, while having relatively low gearing.  I think H-D and Mission have done everything that they can to boost this bike's performance (at the expense of range) so as to get good performance numbers and provide thrills for the short test rides that they will be providing to the public and to publication test riders.  It all makes a lot of marketing sense to me and no one ever said that H-D doesn't know how to market their products.

Wow that is a really interesting way to look at it. I agree and it makes sense. Show off the performance of the bike during this tour so people get excited and you can market the speed and handling etc and all the while maybe some new battery tech emerges or you just wait till the production bike and maybe release two models, one short range/high perfromance and one long range/moderate perfromance.  Interesting take

oml

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Are you still guessing about the range? This (german) article says (and doesnt give sources) 240km (1), mentions that being a number quite  a bit ahead of the game. That translates to an estimatec 12-14kwh battery pack i think.

Im quite shocked about (the general) news - I first saw the pictures of the HDE on the avengers set and was pretty sure it was just a custom build for the set (I imagine taking a movie with the sound of a fucking HD in the background quite hard on the nerves).
Well, now the first big motorcycle company that claims building a electric streetbike (KTM just experimented with dirtbikes, BMWs thing I would consider more of a scooter) is Harley Davidson. The company best known for 1950s look with 1930s tech at ridiculous prices. I would have betted on hell freezing over anytime.

About the bike: I dont like the chromy underside and the ridiculous long wheelbase. Would choose Brammo anytime :D
But I never had a thing for cruisers (look-wise - I enjoy just driving miles of straight road with air in my face as much as anyone)


(1) http://ecomento.tv/2014/06/20/harley-davidson-tourt-mit-elektromotorrad-durch-usa/

Brammofan

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The range (per HD) is 53 miles. Some articles are citing 130 miles, but it all stems from a Mashable article where the reporter was giving information on electric motorcycles in general, needing to be recharged after about 130 miles.
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protomech

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Are you still guessing about the range? This (german) article says (and doesnt give sources) 240km (1), mentions that being a number quite  a bit ahead of the game. That translates to an estimatec 12-14kwh battery pack i think.

Yes, the 53 miles range is just Harley's estimate in hard riding. The bike is about as heavy as a Zero S with power tank, or an Empulse, and has a battery in the same ballpark .. so expect to see about as much range as those two when used in similar fashions.

I updated my blog with a summary of specifications and tentative stops for the US tour.
http://protomech.wordpress.com/2014/06/20/harley-davidson-project-livewire/
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Brammofan

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I updated my blog with a summary of specifications and tentative stops for the US tour.
http://protomech.wordpress.com/2014/06/20/harley-davidson-project-livewire/

I encourage everyone to read this. Great job. :D
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Richard230

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Mithion

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Question-

So Harley purposely designed the LiveWire to make a specific sound using some kind of longitudinal beveled gear setup right?

Does this have any negative effect on power?

Is anything "lost" through this type of setup, like for example how a car has differnt HP at the crank than it does at the wheels.

protomech

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Yes, adding in the 90 degree gearbox will reduce efficiency and throw a little power away.

There may still be some advantages, like better packaging or aesthetics. Harley said they wanted to expose the motor housing, and fitting it longitudinally allowed for a much longer motor than would be able to fit sideways. But they they also have to package the 90 degree gearbox.. wonder if they could incorporate a two-gear arrangement since they're committing to the packaging anyways.
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Mithion

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I wonder if the motor spinning in one direction or the other, which ever it is, produces any gyroscopic effect on the bike? If it does, is it enough to disturb handling, I doubt it.