My Dreams Come True? A Production Electric Harley?(photos and article links inc)

[protomech]

Any gyroscopic effect? Probably, but it should be quite small.

For one: the motor's axis of rotation is very close to the ground and the leaning axis the bike pivots around. Not much leverage.

For another: the rotating bits have little mass and it's relatively centralized.

[Mithion]

Lol I thought everyone might like this, found it over on the Cyril Huze blog.

[Richard230]

My newspaper published an article written by M. I. Johnson of the AP in the business section today.  So now that I see the story in print, I finally believe it.     The LiveWire is getting a lot more press than Zero or Brammo ever did.

The article quotes H-D President Matt Levatich as saying: "We think that the trends in both EV technology and customer openness to EV products, both automotive and motorcycles, is only going to increase, and when you think about sustainability and environmental trends, we just see that being an increasing part of the lifestyle and the requirements of riders.  So nobody can predict right now how big that industry will be or how significant it will be."

Naturally the article picked up on someone's statement somewhere that the bike will go 130 miles on a single charge and only take 30 to 60 minutes to fully recharge.  Oh well, it is hard to always check facts when you are in a hurry to meet a deadline.   

Zero did get a mention as being the first full-size electric motorcycle to enter production in 2010 (no mention of the Electric Motorsport GPR-S, which was introduced in 2009 or the Brammo Enertia that was introduced less than a year later, both of which were at least as "full sized" as the first Zero).  Zero's vice president of Global Marketing, Scot Harden, was quoted as saying that Zero "expects" to sell 2,400 bikes this year. The article says that is "about half of the global market sales for full-size, high-powered electric motorcycles".

The article quotes EV experts as predicting that if H-D gets into the production EV market it will be good for all electric motorcycle manufacturers as doing so will create greater awareness of and demand for electric bikes.  The term "a rising tide raises all boats" was mentioned.

[Mithion]

There is no denying anymore that electric vehicles are the immediate future. ICE vehicles will remain with us for many many years to come but I picture within the next 10-15 years we will see so many EV's on the road, both cars and motorcycles, along with electric bicycles and scooters. I have never personally seen an Enertia, Empulse, Zero or any other electric motorcycle on the road but I see plenty of Tesla's. It's a fact, EV's are the future standard and those who refuse to believe it and accept it will simply just have to deal with it. Tesla, Harley, Brammo, Zero, Rimac etc the more companies that make EV's the mkr people learn about them and begin to realize how freaking awesome they are.

[BrammoBrian]

I don't know of any instrumented tests of the SR ZF11.4. But there is a test of the SR ZF14.2.

Cycleworld tested the SR ZF14.2 bike, and recorded a 4.3 second 0-60 time (compare to their earlier test of a 2013 Empulse R at 4.8 seconds, and a 2013 S ZF11.4 at 5.2 seconds). That's about 10% slower than Zero's claim of 3.9 seconds - so it's possible Zero was mis-representing the production bike's performance, or used a lighter rider than CycleWorld, or the tests were conducted slightly differently. Some 0-60 tests allow a 1 foot of rollout "cheat" .. others start as soon as the vehicle begins movement.

Assuming CycleWorld used a 180 pound rider with gear, and Zero's weight specifications are accurate. The total bike + rider weigh 632 pounds. The SR ZF11.4 bike + rider should weigh 7.1% less, which should reduce 0-60 time with CycleWorld's rider to 4.0 seconds.

Again, that's slower than Zero's claims .. but noticeably quicker than either the 2013 Empulse R or the 2013 Zero S ZF11.4 tested by the same publication earlier.

***

Here's the paper math:

The difference between 3.3 and 3.9 seconds for Zero's claim when adding the Power Tank is between 0.51 to 0.69 seconds, depending on how much rounding you allow. That's a 15% to 21% increase in elapsed time, which all else equal corresponds to a 15% to 21% increase in total vehicle mass.

Zero claims a 45 pound increase in weight with the Power Tank, which means the total vehicle including rider should weigh between 214 and 300 pounds. Obviously incorrect. The expected difference between the two battery configurations should probably be closer to 7-10% depending on rider weight, or perhaps an increase from 3.6 to 3.9 seconds.

Peak power doesn't matter for a 0-60 test if it arrives after 60 mph; motor torque curve and gearing matter.

Right... so no then.  I appreciate your calculations and your attempt to draw conclusions from snippets of data, but all we really need is for someone to instrument the Zero SR and record the ACTUAL 0-60mph time.  Yes - The 2013 Empulse R out accelerated the 2013 Zero S.  Not much of a surprise.   

Back on subject - here are a few observations I have made on the Harley:

1. It's quite petite.  Look how appropriately sized it is for Scarlett Johansson's stunt double and how small it appears with a full-sized male rider. One article I read mentioned that it felt 7/8ths scale.  I would guess that this was done intentionally to attempt to appeal to more female customers, who Harley have been courting hard over the past several years. 

2. It's a high voltage system (300+ Vdc) with a pretty small battery capacity (around 7.8kWh).  At 59kW, that's a nearly 8C discharge rate, which is going to create some heating in the battery as well as dramatically limit the range at higher speeds.

3. This is a good example of the "other approach" from Brammo and Zero.  They are using a small battery pack most likely to offset the high cost of their power electronics - i.e.. IGBT based motor controller from Mission.  I think they'll get a lot of feedback like this: "I love the power and performance, but I just wish it could go farther."   

[ttxgpfan]

Hey guys! been forever since I've been on here.

To comment on Brian's post, as Jay Leno points out almost every time he talks about his old Baker electric, women became the main customers of electric cars because of the easy of maintenance and operation. And if I am not wrong, I think it was A&R that suggested H-D was thinking of an electric bike as more of an entry level/women's bike when he first reported on H-D's elmoto development program. This seems to be a sector Harley has struggled with. They saddled Buell with that poor little Blast, and that didn't turn out so well. Their new 500 and 750 should be popular though.

[Mithion]

Great article over on Asphalt and Rubber-

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/oped/harley-davidson-livewire-change-op-ed/#more-65613

[Shinysideup]

In the above article is this link to an investor video that sheds light on how H-D sees this project:

http://investor.harley-davidson.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=87981&p=irol-livewire

[ttxgpfan]

Thank you for that. Unfortunately I have to wait until I get back on land to watch videos. I've been out here for over 3 weeks now, so I have a lot to catch up on.

[Mithion]

Thank you for that. Unfortunately I have to wait until I get back on land to watch videos. I've been out here for over 3 weeks now, so I have a lot to catch up on.

Are you Navy or other military?

[Mithion]

http://cyrilhuzeblog.com/2014/06/22/sound-of-harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle-has-been-improved/

It appears this experience tour is already producing results :0)

[Virtually Yours]

1. It's quite petite.  Look how appropriately sized it is for Scarlett Johansson's stunt double and how small it appears with a full-sized male rider. One article I read mentioned that it felt 7/8ths scale.  I would guess that this was done intentionally to attempt to appeal to more female customers, who Harley have been courting hard over the past several years. 

3. This is a good example of the "other approach" from Brammo and Zero.  They are using a small battery pack most likely to offset the high cost of their power electronics - i.e.. IGBT based motor controller from Mission.  I think they'll get a lot of feedback like this: "I love the power and performance, but I just wish it could go farther."   

Good observation! Then the size of the bike would be perfect for the wife. If and when the Livewire Tour comes to S.FL the wife and I are definitely going to check out this bike.
Brian makes another good point about the small battery. If I get this bike for the wife it would need to at least have the same range as my #42R. The other side of this is I can't have the wife with a (0-60) faster bike then mine. So either we have to find a way to tune hers down or tune mine up. I like the idea to tune mine up 

[Brammo Rider Wannabe]

If and when the Livewire Tour comes to S.FL the wife and I are definitely going to check out this bike.

Four posts back is a link to an investor video that shows (@ 1:58) three stops in Fla. Post how the test ride goes as I am in Ohio and will likely be skipped by the Tour.

[protomech]

Brian makes another good point about the small battery. If I get this bike for the wife it would need to at least have the same range as my #42R. The other side of this is I can't have the wife with a (0-60) faster bike then mine. So either we have to find a way to tune hers down or tune mine up. I like the idea to tune mine up 

The couple of times I've been in a Harley dealership, it's been stuffed with bikes in the $20k to $30k range. I don't imagine they will have a problem offering a larger battery if customers are demanding it.

[Mithion]

New video of the LiveWire-

Harley-Davidson has just released this video showing a group of Livewires - their new electric bike - being ridden through the streets of New York.

Harley claims the bike makes the equivalent of 74bhp and while no official figures have been released, insiders say it has a range of about 100 miles.

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/mcn/news/newsresults/videos/2014/june/harley-davidson-livewire-in-new-york/