Rideout planning

[Blue Thunder]

Our typical rideouts today are more or less according to the same schedule.

1. Trip to the meeting point (20km to 120km from home) on highway
45 minutes waiting for the others
2. first part of 60km to 100km or 2 hrs
30 minutes stop to get a drink
3. second part of 60km to 100km or 2 hrs
60-90 minutes lunch break
4. Last part of 60km to 100km or 2 hrs
5. Ride home (up to 120km from home) on highway

Has anyone real life experiences with this kind of trips on an electrical motorcycle?
Most of our rideouts are about 300-500km in total.
I'm very curious to see how we could make this feasible. Especially how I could plan the charging times so I don't have to hold the gas burners which are with me.

[kingcharles]

This summer I did a number of EVening rides. We drove off after work fully charged for about 100 kilometres and finished at a place with charge posts and nice food. A two hour stop gave us time for a nice conversation and enough charge to get home again (and enough time for food
During the last one we had some gas bikes joining too (including our CEO!)

What I find is that I ride more often but shorter rides in stead of a few longer rides.
I also ride the long way home from work every time the weather is good. With a gas bike I did not do this often as I did not want to fuel up the bike so often. But charging at home and at the office for nearly no costs means never worry about a full tank or wasting fuel.

[Blue Thunder]

After 100km, how many charge was left?

I was thinking about a 75km starting at full charge, then 30 minutes charging, again 75km, 90 minutes charging and again 75km. Would that be feasible?

[kingcharles]

Between 0 and 20%
Depends on how enthusiastic the ride was...

[protomech]

After 100km, how many charge was left?

I was thinking about a 75km starting at full charge, then 30 minutes charging, again 75km, 90 minutes charging and again 75km. Would that be feasible?

75 km at off-highway speeds (~80 km/h) would use 5-6 kWh, so 15-18 kWh in total. The Empulse starts at 9 kWh, and two hours of charging would replenish 6 kWh, for a total of 15 kWh. It should be able to complete this trip at slower moving speeds (say 70 km/h) or with more time to charge (say another 90m total).

Our typical rideouts today are more or less according to the same schedule.

*snip*

Has anyone real life experiences with this kind of trips on an electrical motorcycle?
Most of our rideouts are about 300-500km in total.
I'm very curious to see how we could make this feasible. Especially how I could plan the charging times so I don't have to hold the gas burners which are with me.

Hi Blue Thunder,

The type of trip you're describing is IMO pretty typical, and I think electric motorcycles will see relatively slow adoption until they can handle these type of trips handily.

1. Trip to the meeting point (20km to 120km from home) on highway
45 minutes waiting for the others

On highway usage will vary from 75-100+ Wh/km depending upon speed, meaning that you will use anywhere from 1.5 kWh to 12 kWh.

To fully replenish in 45 minutes you would need 2-16 kW of charging power, depending upon the trip in question.

2. first part of 60km to 100km or 2 hrs
30 minutes stop to get a drink

With a moving average of 30-50 km/h, you're probably looking at around 80-100 Wh/km so will need to replenish 5-10 kWh. To fully replenish in 30 minutes you need 10-20 kW of charging power.

3. second part of 60km to 100km or 2 hrs
60-90 minutes lunch break

Same 5-10 kWh, but 60-90 minutes for lunch means that you can replenish at a slower rate between 3-10 kW.

4. Last part of 60km to 100km or 2 hrs

Same 5-10 kWh. Presumably the group trip is over at this point, so a longer stop to replenish would be more acceptable.

5. Ride home (up to 120km from home) on highway

At 75-100+ Wh/km, this would consume 1.5 to 12 kWh.

At the conclusion of the group ride - before heading home - this type of trip could expect to consume anywhere from 16 to 42 kWh.

You have approximately 2.5 hours blocked out for potential charging opportunities, prior to departing for the ride home.

The Empulse has about 9 kWh of energy onboard, and a 3 kW charger could supply an additional 7.5 kWh over 2.5 hours for a total of 16.5 kWh. It would barely be capable of doing the shortest of the rides you describe (20 km highway, 60 km @ lower speeds, 60km @ lower speeds, 60 km @ lower speeds = 200 km total) but would need additional time to charge for the longer rides.

Increasing the charging power to 6 kW would bring the total trip energy up to around 24 kWh, which would be capable of doing slightly longer trips (300 km at lower speeds or 200+ km with faster riding).

As onboard energy and charging power scales up further - say to 15 kWh and 15+ kW - then even the longest of the trips you describe become trivial. We have the technology to do this today, but the primary blocking factor is the limited rollout of quick charging infrastructure.

As an example: the largest 2014 Zero S bike has 12.5 kWh energy onboard, can charge in an hour with a compatible CHAdeMO charger (12+ kW). It would be able to do most of the trips you describe, supposing that CHAdeMO chargers were available at each of your charging stops.. which they probably are not.

I suspect within a couple of years you will be able to do these sort of rides on a relatively affordable electric motorcycle with a small amount of planning. The electric motorcycles that are available in production today can complete individual legs of the trip, but without more powerful third party chargers will need additional time to charge.

[00049 (AKA SopFu)]

My longest one day ride was 200 miles (320km). Starting with a full charge, it still took me approximately 14 hours to do the whole trip. I could have done it faster had I not had a planned stop along the way, but definitely no faster than 12 hours. That was almost all at highway speeds (65 to 70 mph, or 100 to 115 kph). I had 3 Level II (2.7kw) charging sessions of approximately 2 hours each, and maybe an hour of Level I (1.3kw).

[benswing]

This past summer I took a 6,000 mile trip on my 2012 Zero S and rode between 250-400 miles each day.  I was on my own and controlled my own schedule.  The charging system I used was a 5kW system which charged me up in 1-1.5hrs. 

For the type of group ride you are talking about, you can probably do 2 legs of the trip with other riders.

Here is what I have done to ride with a couple of friends on gas bikes:
1)  Ride to meeting point that has a charging station
2)  Charge up at a meeting point.
3)  Ride with friends to lunch/destination that has a charging station.
3)  Charge at lunch/desination point.
4)  Ride with friends back home.

Personally I think realistic full day rides with electric and gas bikes will be far more feasible with ChaDeMo.  However, you can get 100+ miles of riding with friends in a day pretty easily as long as there is a charging station at your destination and your buddies don't mind hanging out there for a bit.

Good luck!

[Blue Thunder]

Very usefull informaton. Thanks for that!

I indeed am aware that I have to plan my trips from charging point to charging point. However, EU mains is 240V/16amps and I'm pretty sure that I can charge at level II at virtually any destination point.

Only if Brammo would a be bit more clear about the capabilities of the onboard charger in EU.

[00049 (AKA SopFu)]

Brammo is clear about the capabilities on the onboard charger. It is rated at 3kw, and you will typically see about 2.7kw when the battery is below 80%. So figure 2 hours of charging at full power will give you between 40 and 60 miles of range depending on how spirited the pace is.

[JeffK]

I think it might be better to adapt our ride-outs to the capabilities of the bikes.

Like when you see other EV drivers work with their laptops at charging stations for a few hours.

It might be best for group rides, to ride a nice 100km tour, then watch a RACE on a video screen for example, then ride some more.
In stead of watching a race, you could attend an organized seminar on say, Suspension tech. and/or have your suspension set up by a shock-shop-guy.
Picture: Tech day at Hyperpro Suspension

[littlefreak3000]

I'm still waiting for DC chargers to become a standard thing around the country. Its a shame the Empulse doesn't support any kind of DC charge.

[Blue Thunder]

I think it might be better to adapt our ride-outs to the capabilities of the bikes.

Well... yes, and no. I only partly can agree on that. For lonely rides, ok.
But our ride-outs are focussed on the pleasure of riding, twisty corners, wide views and now and then a little break. Lots of kms and less stops.

I don't think I could sell the idea of touristic ride-outs to our public. So, either I look for new friends or I stick with our concept and try to bend the bike to our way of riding.

I hope I may assume in the near future quick chargers will become more common and range per charge will increase so I only need to find suitable stopping points for food, beverage AND charging.

I still have more than a year to decide what will be the next bike ;-)

[protomech]

I think it might be better to adapt our ride-outs to the capabilities of the bikes.

I agree, but only for EV enthusiasts. Current production bikes can't handle every type of ride, but if you're willing to work within their limitations you can certainly cover a lot of ground in a day.

Adoption will remain quite slow among non-enthusiasts as long as the charge and range limitations require significant compromise.

[Blue Thunder]

Actually it's the world upside-down. I don't know about the culture at your side of the ocean but here we are not used to manufacturers who decide for us what we should do or use and even less that they tell us how we should behave, just because of the fact that their products don't completely meet the purposes.
Instead of using all their knowledge at once and doing any effort to meet the customer's basic wishes, EV-manufacturers introduce their technology slowly in order to maximize their profits and "milk the cow" as long as possible until the sales dept. pulls the alarm bell.
And then they gradually enhance the features and possibilities by adding technology they already have in house for years.
For EV-cars this story worked for a while. But in the mean time in Belgium it's over and out for electric cars. I hope they get a second chance but there's reasonable doubt.

But for motorcycles..., I'm not sure. Because cars are 99% utility vehicles people care less about a daytrip range. Lots of motorcycles are used for fun, travel and ride-outs. And then range is one of the first decision points. With gas, it's less of a problem. People can fill up at the corner of every street.
On the other hand, the typical commuter buys a new one every 3 to 5 years. It's a more stable market.  So maybe it's a calculated guess not releasing the full package at once.
Brammo already did a smart move with dropping the prices drastically. Price isn't a spoiler anymore. Competitors will need to catch up now and I looks like the competition has started.

Nevertheless, if EV provide the possibilities to get near the type of ride-outs I mentioned before, and I'm definitely open minded, nothing else keeps me from buying one! There are lots of other advantages that support the EV-choice.

Sorry for getting on a little sidetrack 

I appreciate the suggestions of changing the ride schedule.

[protomech]

Actually it's the world upside-down. I don't know about the culture at your side of the ocean but here we are not used to manufacturers who decide for us what we should do or use and even less that they tell us how we should behave, just because of the fact that their products don't completely meet the purposes.

I don't think Brammo or Zero are telling people what they should do or how they should use their bikes. But the limitations are limitations.

On the flip side: after riding gas for a few years and electric for a few years, I've been spoiled by a fresh "tank" of energy every morning, ease of operation, and the lack of powertrain maintenance. I've been looking at gas bikes recently for some longer rides, but both of those limitations of gas bikes in all honesty give me some pause.

And likewise, the gas manufacturers aren't telling people how they should ride. It's just the nature of the bike.

Instead of using all their knowledge at once and doing any effort to meet the customer's basic wishes, EV-manufacturers introduce their technology slowly in order to maximize their profits and "milk the cow" as long as possible until the sales dept. pulls the alarm bell.
And then they gradually enhance the features and possibilities by adding technology they already have in house for years.

I don't think they're trickling out updates to maintain a sales cycle; if the bikes could handle the type of trips you're talking about, their sales would probably go up by a huge amount instantly. Starving today to eat tomorrow doesn't make a ton of sense..

I think instead the sticking point is either cost of components (HV motor controllers) or the lack of standardization for quick charging, and at least in the US motorcycles have no hope to influence quick charging adoption due to limited numbers. So we may be waiting until the SAE vs CHAdeMO spat dies down..