Polaris acquires Brammo

[littlefreak3000]

I'd like to see a Polaris Empulse with a Powered by Brammo sticker on it. Or it could also be this purchase includes the whole lot of what is Brammo including the name. They might just be adding Brammo to there list of sub divisions.

[Richard230]

The reason that I think Polaris will keep the Brammo name is that they kept the Indian name when they bought the rights to the company and that their VP of motorcycle operations was named as also being responsible for the Brammo brand in a press release last year.

[roma258]

The reason that I think Polaris will keep the Brammo name is that they kept the Indian name when they bought the rights to the company and that their VP of motorcycle operations was named as also being responsible for the Brammo brand in a press release last year.

The Brammo name doesn't have anywhere near the history or brand equity of Indian, so I don't think there's anything to really draw from that precedent. We'll see, I just hope they keep developing the bikes under whatever name they end up settling on. One positive tea leaf is their promising to support warranty and part supply for the existing Brammo bikes. So if you're gonna spend resources on building parts and supporting the bikes, might as well get some return on that investment.

[ttxgpfan]

Wow, how this never popped up in any of my feeds mystifies me, but that's internet in the North Sea for you. The Brand question is interesting. I think of any company Polaris would be one to keep a name. And the Brammo name has recognition and respect in small circles. They have tropheys and accolades and the like. But even still, I'd say way more people will recognize a Polaris name. I think back to when KTM was going to release their sad little dirt bike, or when Honda showed off a pretty bike with the equivalent of a squirrel motor in it, and how nuts people went. Oh Honda/KTM are gonna show they up starts what's what was the jist I got. Of which I totally disagreed. Seems to me the Honda was nothing more than a PR stunt, and KTM couldn't even come close to matching KTM's pace. But that didn't stop the FIM from trying to start and all electric KTM Motorcross series with the bikes. "The drones", as my uncles refer to them, will always think these big companies will have the best whatever, even if you show them evidence that they don't. So may a Polaris Empulse isn't such a bad thing, as long as it's really a Brammo design. All the people who know the Brammo name will be able to follow the switch to Polaris.

As far as the chassis being designed somewhere else, I am going to have to whole-heatedly disagree. And this is why. From my conversations with Brian from the end of 2012 through to the end of 2013, BRT worked extensively on the chassis of the RR. As a matter of fact when Parker got them more power from the motor it wasn't from the request of anyone. They're just motor heads and went ahead and did it. With my podcast conversation with Eric Bostrom, and later Brian, it seems they found that the power delivery effects the chassis in a different manner than a gas motor (at least at the high levels they were working at). So I have a hard time believing that Polaris would hand the chassis design over to someone else. They might find a different supplier, I'm sure that's a distinct possibility. But I think the chassis will still be Brammo designed. If Brammo becomes more of an R&D company then hopefully BRT will be able to continue on as the racing arm.

Just my thoughts.

[Richard230]

Here is another article, with some interesting comments:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/01/22/polaris-buys-brammo-electric-motorcycles/

[MichaelJ]

Happy for Brammo!  Really looking forward to a touring-capable electric cruiser to replace my Boulevard.

[Rano]

I got a mail from Brammo

Dear Rano

To avoid any doubt we would like to remind all Brammo customers that your Brammo Authorized Dealer remains your sole source of service, warranty, parts and accessories, for all Brammo electric motorcycles. Any changes to this arrangement will be communicated to you directly by Brammo.


Ride safe
Team Brammo

At least my Enertia will get spare parts.   

[littlefreak3000]

I have a thought about this. Some of the assumptions made is that Polaris acquired Brammo so they could make their own electric motorcycles. They didn't buy the part of Brammo needed to do that. They bought the Empulse and the Enertia not the drive train. Brammo still owns the drive train. So they must be intending to make Empulses. Think of it this way, If they wanted to make an Electric Victory they could have done it with a Brammo drive train already without buying anything. So the real question is will it be a Polaris Empulse or will they keep the Brammo name on it. Also I'd like to see what Polaris motorcycle experience brings to the Empulse line.

[roma258]

I have a thought about this. Some of the assumptions made is that Polaris acquired Brammo so they could make their own electric motorcycles. They didn't buy the part of Brammo needed to do that. They bought the Empulse and the Enertia not the drive train. Brammo still owns the drive train. So they must be intending to make Empulses. Think of it this way, If they wanted to make an Electric Victory they could have done it with a Brammo drive train already without buying anything. So the real question is will it be a Polaris Empulse or will they keep the Brammo name on it. Also I'd like to see what Polaris motorcycle experience brings to the Empulse line.

Great point, but there's a bit of nuance here. Did they buy just the brand or the intellectual property as well? Did Brammo keep the patents in their drivetrain and battery division, or relinquish them to Polaris so that it could use it as a base for their own program?

[littlefreak3000]

Brammo definitely kept the powertrain technology. The whole reason behind this is so Brammo can focus on being a powertrain company and not have to worry about building bikes. So Polaris bought the motorcycle manufacture. So why else would you buy that unless you plan on building those motorcycles?

[Rano]

In the best world ever - yes, this would be the past and the future.
Let´s see.

[00049 (AKA SopFu)]

Great point, but there's a bit of nuance here. Did they buy just the brand or the intellectual property as well? Did Brammo keep the patents in their drivetrain and battery division, or relinquish them to Polaris so that it could use it as a base for their own program?

There probably isn't much IP in the drivetrain part because the PTO will only grant patents to "non-obvious" technology. If they are taking commercial items and just combining them, the PTO will consider that obvious. They may have a copyright on the software, but I'm not sure how much value that would have outside an Empulse or of any of the major components are swapped. Brammo's value is in their design experience, not the IP.

Interesting observation by Littlefreak, though.

[frodus]

Brammo owns more IP than you think.... Not just drive train.

[00049 (AKA SopFu)]

Brammo owns more IP than you think.... Not just drive train.

PTO lists two patents for Brammo, both in throttle control. There are 10 applications, most of which I am guessing were not granted patents given the time stamps.

FWIW, 20% success rate through PTO is about what I would expect from a startup, maybe even slightly better.

Patents are the only form of IP, but they are the kind that you can sell and count on getting royalties in return.

[flar]

PTO lists two patents for Brammo, both in throttle control. There are 10 applications, most of which I am guessing were not granted patents given the time stamps.

How long have they been in process?  I've had patents go several years before they were granted.  I've also had patents that after a few years they sent me back a challenge saying "we found prior art - this guy blogged about this thing here" and they pointed me to my own documentation about the technology being patented.  I had to point out that it was describing the need, not the solution - and it was my own description of the need that I solved myself via the patent they were evaluating - and they then sat on it a few more years before finally granting it.  A reasonable analogy would be if they sent the guy patenting the electric drivetrain in the Tesla Model S a pointer to an article he had written on Tesla's own web site about all the drawbacks of gas cars and claimed it was "prior art".

PTO can be really slow at times (in more ways than one).