Why the Brammo hate from other electrics?

[Adan]

This thread illustrates how it's possible (easy, even) to discuss the relative merits of Zero v. Brammo without getting catty.  The original question was, why the cattiness?  I don't think that's been answered, and maybe it's not really a subject susceptible to investigation.

My theory would simply be that when you've got two worthy competitors battling for such a narrow market share -- so narrow in fact that probably only one of them can stay in business -- people will sometimes give in to their baser instincts. 

My choice was between a 2013 Zero and a 2013 Empulse.  I test rode both and the choice to me was clear.  In my personal calculation, the transmission was kind of a wash or maybe a slight negative.  I liked the flexibility it offered, but didn't feel that flexibility was worth the extra complexity.  But even viewing the tranny as a negative, the Empulse still came out ahead as just a more refined product.  It also mattered a lot that the dealer (Scuderia) was a known quantity to me and much more convenient to access.

If I were making the choice today, it would probably still be the Empulse as long as it is being offered at essentially "going out of business" prices.  I'd be worried about the continued support, but could probably get past that enough to put my money down.

[Adan]

OK, so I just checked the Brammo website and apparently they are planning to stay in business -- or at least, they have returned to the prices that are based on that premise.  So my choice, if I were making it today, might be tougher. 

You can analyze this stuff all you want but for many folks, nothing helps make a decision like the visceral experience of a test ride.  In 2013, that experience left me with no doubt.

[Shinysideup]

You can analyze this stuff all you want but for many folks, nothing helps make a decision like the visceral experience of a test ride.  In 2013, that experience left me with no doubt.

This.

Off topic: on the Brammo site, the 2013 Empulse is the same price as the 2014. But for the Empulse R, the 2013 is $1K more than the 2014. Whut??

[roma258]

You can analyze this stuff all you want but for many folks, nothing helps make a decision like the visceral experience of a test ride.  In 2013, that experience left me with no doubt.

This.

Off topic: on the Brammo site, the 2013 Empulse is the same price as the 2014. But for the Empulse R, the 2013 is $1K more than the 2014. Whut??

It's pretty much academic at this point. Doubt there's more than 5 new examples left in the whole country.

[flar]

Off topic: on the Brammo site, the 2013 Empulse is the same price as the 2014. But for the Empulse R, the 2013 is $1K more than the 2014. Whut??

The 2013 R models probably have the carbon fiber bodywork that was changed to plain plastic on the 2014 models (both regular and R).  Since those body panels are now a $1500 upgrade for 2014 models they probably adjusted the price of the old R models to match.  It's actually $500 less than a 2014 R upgraded with carbon fiber...

[katacrak]

For me zero is no match for the Empulse. I bought the Empulse by that brought together what he wanted, the zero has nothing. As in petrol bikes, fixed me a lot in aesthetics, and performance, I want and need, I'll do with the bike, finally today from my preferences there is no match for the Empulse.

Empulse evidently be improved, but basically greater autonomy.

[flar]

This thread illustrates how it's possible (easy, even) to discuss the relative merits of Zero v. Brammo without getting catty.  The original question was, why the cattiness?  I don't think that's been answered, and maybe it's not really a subject susceptible to investigation.

This quote from near the end of protomech's very lengthy post seems to me to be the best explanation for the tone of the discussion:

There are a few people within the EV enthusiast space, whether dealers or staff at other motorcycle companies or one-time customers, who see Brammo's flailing as malicious. I think that's an exceedingly unkind outlook, but I can see why they might think so.

I'd go one step further and say that when the Empulse was in its final delivery stages there were posts I'd seen that specifically blamed Brammo for running a PR interference campaign.  It came to a head in late 2012 when the Zero announcement of the 2013 bikes came right at the same time that Brammo started announcing and giving demos on the Empulse and taking deposits.

[Shinysideup]

Yep, I remember that.

Bottom line: Flailers gonna flail; haters gonna hate. Whatcha gonna do? Ride!

[flar]

One minor correction on a very lengthy and informative post:

Here's an abbreviated timeline:

...

- Mid 2012: Brammo reveals production Empulse, big price increases.
- Late 2012: Zero announces 2013 bikes with big power increase, delivers them to dealers shortly after.
- Dec 2012: Brammo delivers the first Empulse R.

...

Your point about Zero never announcing anything until it was just a couple of months to delivery is a good one, but the 2013 Zero bikes were delivered about a month, maybe 2 after the Empulse was delivered.  I don't know the exact date of delivery of the first 2013 Zeros, but I do know that it was not before the end of January 2013 because I was in the uncomfortable position of having an Empulse with my name on it and a dealer pressing me to sign the paperwork while I was waiting to even lay eyes on the 2013 Zero.  I eventually did get my test rides in so I could make an informed purchase between the two latest models, and they told me that they might go on sale second week or so of February at that time, but it was difficult to get much out of Zero in that time period until the bikes appeared at the dealer.

The actual time frame was more like:

Early May 2012: Brammo introduces production Empulse
October 1, 2012: Zero announces 2013 models
mid Dec 2012: Brammo delivers the first few Empulse R's
Late Jan, early Feb 2013: Zero delivers the 2013 bikes

Time from Empulse prototype to delivery was something like 3 years?
Time from Empulse product announcement to delivery was ~7 months.
Time from Zero product announcement (of an entire range, no less) to delivery was ~4 months.

And, my personal experiences added to this timeline:

early Jan 2013: My dealer starts pressing me on the fact that my Empulse R is ready for purchase, it was frustrating to see some friends get theirs starting in mid December
early to mid Jan 2013: Jim is trying to reach Zero through dealers to get a test ride of the bikes announced a couple of months ago.
late Jan 2013: My dealer is ready to sell bike to someone else, no word from Zero, I let my (potential) Zero dealer know that I'm likely to pull the trigger
late Jan 2013: Zero shows up at the local dealer with a truck full of 2013s and I get my test ride.  During the discussion they discuss earlier test rides with other customers at the same dealer.  They also diss the Brammos to my face (thinking that will somehow sway me?).

[Edited last couple of items on my personal timeline to "mid Jan 2013" because I'm pretty sure my registration date on my bike was 1/19 meaning I couldn't have been still trying to get info/rides in "late Jan 2013"... - Changed back to "late Jan 2013" as I just checked and indeed my purchase date was 1/28...]

[Richard230]

According to an article in the April issue of Motorcyclist magazine, regarding the sale of Brammo motorcycle production to Polaris, Richard Walker, CEO of Zero Motorcycles, is quoted as follows:

"We're happy to have Polaris bolster Brammo.  We think Polaris' interest validates the electric-motorcycle market, and we welcome the competition."

If anyone in the industry "hates" Brammo, I sure haven't heard about it - and that includes my Zero dealer.  They have never said a single negative word about Brammo or their products around me.

[Shinysideup]

If anyone in the industry "hates" Brammo, I sure haven't heard about it - and that includes my Zero dealer.  They have never said a single negative word about Brammo or their products around me.

I have patronized that dealer since Ned owned it way down on El Camino and we both owned ST1100's. They've worked on 2 Hondas and a Yamaha for me over a 10+ year period, including a $1000 clutch replacment.

I loved my experience test-riding the 2012 Zero with them.

Then, last year, I got a puncture in my Empulse's rear tire and they are one of the few shops who will put in a plug from the inside. They've done that for me 3 other times over the years. After filling my rear tire to 50 psi, I left home and rolled in to the shop on a near-flat tire so I could go to work that day. The repair shop was gracious enough to fit me in, but then I overheard some angry words and learned that the shop manager got into hot water from the owner of the dealership, who, on the spot, laid down a new rule: no working on any electric bikes other than Zero. Over a tire repair! (The service dept. finished the repair and apologized to me.)

I'll admit, this isn't really saying "a single negative word about Brammo or their products", but it has sure kept me from ever going back there as a customer for anything at all since then. 

[Ted Dillard]

Lawd help me, I felt the need to actually register to this group to respond to this thread.    (I know, Harry, "such a Dillard", right?)

Long ago I got labeled a Brammo "hater", and in spite of a lot of work on my part and a consistent track record of trying to get facts, not opinion, and contact sources, rather than internet gossip, I still seem to have that label. I'll start off by saying I don't hate, dislike, actively discredit or am ever gleeful about misfortune regarding Brammo, or anyone there - and I have spoken personally to more than a few of them.  So at the outset, I feel like, because of several occasions where I call it as I see it, people who don't want to see the facts for what they are, call me a "hater".   

I think of all the comments on this thread, protomech hits a lot of the points on the head, in response to the OP.  I started following Brammo back in the days of the Shocking Barack tour, when their big claim was to "Under promise and over-deliver".  If you follow their history, now, that was a mantra that was clearly left by the wayside.

My biggest issue with Brammo is simply credibility.  I, and I'll go out on a limb and say almost every guy I know out there writing about this stuff who takes it seriously, simply have a hard time believing anything they claim anymore.  I can go through the list - starting with Shocking Barack, to the Enertia, the transmission, Best Buy, their racing strategy, the Empulse design and delivery, and point to instance after instance where Brammo has said one thing, and ultimately done something completely different.  My last story on IEV was complimented by protomech for making the effort to contact Brammo.  What I was told by them was hugely spun, at the very kindest description.  You'll note, at no point in my story did I do anything other than say "Brammo said...", because I simply didn't have enough belief in what I was being told to come out and claim it as fact.  Honestly, I'll not waste my time reaching out to them again to try to get a fair view of their side of the story.  I just don't have the time, or, at this point, the interest.

My best characterization of Brammo's management is that it suffers from ADD.  The biggest difference between Zero and Brammo I see is that Zero has, year after year, stuck to the knitting and demonstrated a commitment to the astoundingly difficult task of building a motorcycle company.  Brammo runs from project to project. 

Today, they claim to be re-focusing their business on BrammoPower, their drivetrain.  Can anyone point me to any company that has successfully launched a company based on an EV drivetrain?  They claim they have countless requests for it, and I hope for the sake of the entire team that's left they do, but I don't believe it.  Not even for a second.  I have my own beliefs about what really happened there, but only time will tell if I'm right or not.  But I'll say this.  When I did the Op-Ed in InsideEVs on the Polaris buy-out that I saw coming, I was labeled a hater once again.  Except I was dead-nuts on. 

On dealerships and their attitudes, I've heard story after story about how Brammo has made it nearly impossible to work with them to sell and service their bikes.  One of the last threads I did on elmoto was about the challenges small, independent dealers face.  I'll see if I can find it and post the link here.  (update - the thread was lost in one of the elmoto database crashes, sorry.)

I put together a Brammo timeline on my site: https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/the-brammo-timeline/

...as well as a Zero timeline: https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2014/01/04/zero-motorycles-timeline/

  I really think that an honest look at those two histories speaks for itself.  I have been told, straight out, that Bramscher calls the shots at Brammo often disregarding his own (remarkable) team's advice, and several sources have backed that up.  In any case, the CEO is ultimately responsible for the decisions and direction of the company, so I'd hold him as responsible as I hold Walker at Zero.  So when I am critical of Brammo's decisions, yeah, you can say I'm hating on Bramscher, I suppose, but it's certainly not personal. 

Here in Brammo land, you guys love your bikes.  That's awesome, because anybody who's read anything I've ever written knows that's my bottom line.  But from Brammo owners in particular, from the very beginning you got the feeling that if you're not 100% behind everything they say, and dare to question it then you're not "one of us".  You're clearly "one of them", a "hater", and that's an attitude that I feel comes right from the company, and the top of the company at that. 

Harry's response to the OP is almost exactly what I'm talking about.  And you know I love you, ya big lunk.  I know it was a joke, but my response as someone from outside of the "Ashland Bubble" isn't to laugh.  You're just perpetuating the religion.   

Which is unfortunate.  Because the only "us" and "them" I feel is legit in this discussion is EV and ICE.  And even that is lame.  Because we all love motorcycles, right? 

[roma258]

For the record, my initial question was not directed at anyone in particular, just an overall vibe I've gotten over time, including multiple interactions with Zero reps. I've been in "Brammo land" for like 2 months now, 4 if you include snooping around the board while making my purchasing decision. But yeah, the general consensus seems to be that Bramscher's business practices really soured a bunch of people. I do have to wonder with him being such an unreliable partner, why Polaris would make the investment that they did instead of just letting Brammo whither on the vine? Not snarking, just curious where this is all going.

[Ted Dillard]

Just one comment about the forums, then I'll sit down.  I was very active on elmoto for almost since it started, and it was started by a bunch of guys who were building their own bikes.  In the early days it was a small group of guys, Brian Wismann included, who were learning and a few of them were on the cutting edge of the tech.  It was kind of a curious mix of the incredible talent you see on Endless Sphere dedicated to just building motorcycles.  I'd wager that Brian would say he learned as much as any of us did from that forum at that time.  A ton of that was lost in a huge database crash, and to someone new to the forum you'd never know about it.  I later became a moderator, and was very active it maintaining it. 

As racing gained some traction we started seeing a lot of involvement from "keyboard racers", who knew little or nothing about the tech other than what they'd gleaned from the internet.  There was some concerted effort on the forum to keep the focus on builders, by the mods, with the blessing of Mike, the owner.  Then we started seeing owners of Zero and Brammo bikes getting onboard.  On one hand it was cool - even Terry Hershner started out building his own and ultimately bought a bike - but after discussing stuff like transmissions for fully 5 years, with some very knowledgeable engineers contributing, to have an Empulse owner get on with little or no knowledge of the physics and simply parrot what Brammo was touting rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.  When you're working a board that people trust for good, safe advice, it gets dicey when you start seeing people giving advice who really have no business doing so.

Not only did we see the board start splintering into the Zero and Brammo owners, but also the builders vs. the buyers. 

I'll take full responsibility for my part in that, but it was an effort to keep the board focused on what it was created for - builders.  Ultimately I got off, for various reasons, but they're still a great place to visit to see madmen building crazy awesome stuff, and get advice on how you can do it yourself.

Just wondering if maybe some of the off-putting you experienced there may be due to that, and not really the Brammo side of it.   

[skuzzle]

I do have to wonder with him being such an unreliable partner, why Polaris would make the investment that they did instead of just letting Brammo whither on the vine?

How do you know that isn't what's happening?  They bought the motorcycle end and let the rest fend for itself.

Lawd help me, I felt the need to actually register to this group to respond to this thread.

Welcome to the forum.  I for one like hearing your input.