Why the Brammo hate from other electrics?

[Virtually Yours]

The debate of hate.
Well I can say there's no hate for anything motorized with two wheels here. Now I can only tell you my personal decision at the time to choose Brammo over Zero. I see everyone comparing time lines, for a tranny or no tranny, but that wasn't it for me. I was on the waiting list for the Empulse R since Feb 2011. I signed up because a few months earlier I got the idea to buy an electric car to save money on rising gas prices. I was just looking for a daily commuter. Something that was cost effective with some style to get me around on my days off.  99% of the time I'm within a +/- 25 mile radius of the homestead. The problem was that all EVs at the time sucked! So this crazy thought came crashing down into the grey matter between my ears like a message from Ancient Aliens so I Google "electric motorcycles". I began reading, trying to learn everything and comparing the bikes so I can make a well informed purchase. At the time Zero was just getting started and Brammo had the Empulse prototype. So for two years like everyone I followed and watched closely. I wasn't tmpressed with the style of the Zero. Within this time frame I saw the Zero DS at Riva Motorsports in Pompano Beach, FL and thought it kind of looked cheap. Compound that with the fact that two years later the 2012 Zero had its fair share of problems. So for me, at the time, comparing the Zero vs Brammo, Brammo had a good, solid, legit look where the Zero fell short. The Brammo offered top shelf components and L2 charging and the Zero didn't. So the style of the Empulse, the top shelf components, L2 charging and a racing heritage is what sealed it for me. In the end it's about being satisfied.  I've had no problems with my 2013 Empulse R and it has lived up to my full expectations.
Regarding the deal with Polaris, It's not like this buy out/take over/partnership was unexpected, at least not to me... Once the big money was flowing this deal was going to happen and in my mind strengthens my decision to choose Brammo over Zero.
Of course I wish the recent dealership issue gets resolved quickly and hopefully I can go to the closest Victory/Indian dealership 10 miles away instead of a 50 mile hike into Miami crazy town...

[flar]

For my own part, when I'm approached in the wild about my bike I make sure that the person asking the questions knows about both Brammo and Zero and has a good handle on why the bikes from either brand may or may not meet their needs, focusing first and primarily on what is good about each.  The popularity is still so thin that advancing a personal opinion can only have the potential to drive away sales and support for the industry.  Even for some of the more esoteric brands that have either not shipped yet or that I've only seen a report of 1 or 2 sales, I point out the promise they will bring without taking away from what that person could get that afternoon by visiting one of a couple of local dealers.

[Shinysideup]

Lawd help me, I felt the need to actually register to this group to respond to this thread.

Well, Ted, I'm not sure why you would need the Lord's help to participate with us, but don't worry, we let just about anybody play here.

[katacrak]

Timelines ... well how important is the present. 2 problems with my newly purchased Empulse resulting immediate attention and technical service quality. Admittedly I'm hoping to kit oil leak, but that is coming. If anyone doubts this with polaris, as an example here.

Never He has conducted another brand directly to me. both technical Brammo in Spain, such as technical service from USA. And I have to say I do not call to them.

I do not understand that every year a model has to have modifications, contrary to my big brands, design and build legendary models, and are those that remain and give you reputation. Examples: Triumph, BMW, Harley Davinson, Moto Guzzi. Brammo Empulse and I'm sure you enter in this club.

[Ted Dillard]

Well, Ted, I'm not sure why you would need the Lord's help to participate with us, but don't worry, we let just about anybody play here.

Thanks!  I do read this group a lot, but haven't joined because, well, I'm not a Brammo owner.     I saw you let the likes of Ben in here though, and figured I was good...   

For the record, I've also been characterized as a transmission hater as well, (I believe the term used here was that I "poo-pooed" transmissions).  The fact of the matter is that after tossing the concept around for several years, I suspect a small two-speed, much like a dual-range gearbox that some bikes run, would be really practical and workable.  Unfortunately, that kind of thing is near-impossible for a builder like me, and about the last thing I'd do is go with a six-speed, and that conclusion is based on some really solid physics and modeling, and born out by rider reports.  Thus, I'm not a fan of the Empulse from that standpoint.  Do I hate the Empulse because of the tranny?  That'd be silly.

After riding the Energica EGO, enjoying the huge performance and loving the lack of shifting, I'm honestly still not convinced even the little dual range would be a good thing. 

However, and here's the point, I respect that a lot of folks like the tranny and clutch, and want it.  One of my concerns with this Polaris deal is if they'll keep the SMRE motor/tranny, and if they don't, there are going to be a bunch of sad riders.  It'd be a shame to see the tech so limited so early on in the development of electric motorcycles.

[roma258]

I know this topic kinda ran its course, but I do want to flag this article, because it is exactly the kind of smack talk I've heard from Zero reps before. I don't think it's malicious, dude's obviously proud of his products, but it just so happened I ran across it:
"Q: Zero’s motto is “Sophisticated Simplicity.” Are you concerned about being upstaged by your more high-tech rivals?
A: Not really. The Brammo Empulse, for example, with its liquid-cooling and six-speed gearbox, their execution left a lot to be desired. You could maybe make an argument for a high and low gear, but if you rode the bike, you could put it any gear and it behaved the same except immediately off the line. Their design was clunky and had a lot of gear-lash noise. And now you’ve got coolant, transmission fluid, clutch plates, etc."
http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/03/03/cw-interview-scot-harden-vp-of-global-marketing-zero-electric-motorcycles/

[Richard230]

Well, Scot Harden is Zero's V.P. of "Global Marketing".  If you are looking for lots of fluff and hot air, just head for any company's marketing department.   

You won't hear that kind of talk from Zero's line employees or engineers.

[skuzzle]

I know this topic kinda ran its course, but I do want to flag this article, because it is exactly the kind of smack talk I've heard from Zero reps before. I don't think it's malicious, dude's obviously proud of his products, but it just so happened I ran across it:
"Q: Zero’s motto is “Sophisticated Simplicity.” Are you concerned about being upstaged by your more high-tech rivals?
A: Not really. The Brammo Empulse, for example, with its liquid-cooling and six-speed gearbox, their execution left a lot to be desired. You could maybe make an argument for a high and low gear, but if you rode the bike, you could put it any gear and it behaved the same except immediately off the line. Their design was clunky and had a lot of gear-lash noise. And now you’ve got coolant, transmission fluid, clutch plates, etc."
http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/03/03/cw-interview-scot-harden-vp-of-global-marketing-zero-electric-motorcycles/

I wouldn't call that "smack talk".  Many of the Empulse reviews have said the exact same thing.  From the Brammo side you hear a lot of talk about higher end components and much better charging setup than the zero.  It's all marketing.  Not much difference from Ford versus Chevy.   

[Ted Dillard]

Neither would I.  Legitimate points, from where I sit, and yes, points repeated in independent reviews. 

Rather than getting defensive and tagging it "smack talk", why not call it what it is?  Another valid opinion?  Does it really have any impact on your enjoyment of your motorcycle?

[roma258]

Like I said, it's not a big deal at the end of the day, but I do find it interesting that a Zero rep would start putting down a competitor's product unprompted like that. I've followed bikes long enough and met enough reps, and I can't say I've seen other guys do it...maybe ever. It certainly has no impact on my enjoyment, just ran across and wanted to flag it because I thought it was relevant to the topic.

[Virtually Yours]

Neither would I.  Legitimate points, from where I sit, and yes, points repeated in independent reviews. 

Rather than getting defensive and tagging it "smack talk", why not call it what it is?  Another valid opinion?  Does it really have any impact on your enjoyment of your motorcycle?

Good point...
This review does a good job of making valid points on both sides

[Ted Dillard]

Like I said, it's not a big deal at the end of the day, but I do find it interesting that a Zero rep would start putting down a competitor's product unprompted like that. I've followed bikes long enough and met enough reps, and I can't say I've seen other guys do it...maybe ever. It certainly has no impact on my enjoyment, just ran across and wanted to flag it because I thought it was relevant to the topic.

Are we reading the same thing?  I read a story you linked that had a quote in an interview with the VP of Marketing at Zero, responding to a direct question about his product's tech vs the Brammo tech.  I'd even characterize the question as baiting. 

...

I just want to add a thought that I had this morning.  I ride what can be best called a "cult bike" for my gas ride.  It's a 1986 Yamaha SRX600 - a single cylinder naked bike with only a kick starter.  I bought it new because it is simply perfect (in my opinion  ) ...and I've never even considered another bike, after 30 years of buying bikes.

I'm on the fringe of the fringe.  I don't fit in with the Harley crowd, though I joke I run "half a Harley".  The crotch-rocket guys laugh at me, the anti-Jap bikers make fun, even the cafe guys joke that it's not properly British and doesn't leak enough oil.  Do I give a crap?  Does it look like it? 

You guys are on the fringe of the fringe of the fringe.  Not only are you riding a motorcycle, you're riding an electric one, and a specific brand and design that's unique.  Like my big thumper, some people are going to be amazed and love it.  Are people going to dump on it, and even make fun of it?  Is some of that going to come from even the electric motorcycle community?  There's no doubt. 

Get over it.  Seriously.

[roma258]

Like I said, it's not a big deal at the end of the day, but I do find it interesting that a Zero rep would start putting down a competitor's product unprompted like that. I've followed bikes long enough and met enough reps, and I can't say I've seen other guys do it...maybe ever. It certainly has no impact on my enjoyment, just ran across and wanted to flag it because I thought it was relevant to the topic.

Are we reading the same thing?  I read a story you linked that had a quote in an interview with the VP of Marketing at Zero, responding to a direct question about his product's tech vs the Brammo tech.  I'd even characterize the question as baiting. 

...

I just want to add a thought that I had this morning.  I ride what can be best called a "cult bike" for my gas ride.  It's a 1986 Yamaha SRX600 - a single cylinder naked bike with only a kick starter.  I bought it new because it is simply perfect (in my opinion  ) ...and I've never even considered another bike, after 30 years of buying bikes.

I'm on the fringe of the fringe.  I don't fit in with the Harley crowd, though I joke I run "half a Harley".  The crotch-rocket guys laugh at me, the anti-Jap bikers make fun, even the cafe guys joke that it's not properly British and doesn't leak enough oil.  Do I give a crap?  Does it look like it? 

You guys are on the fringe of the fringe of the fringe.  Not only are you riding a motorcycle, you're riding an electric one, and a specific brand and design that's unique.  Like my big thumper, some people are going to be amazed and love it.  Are people going to dump on it, and even make fun of it?  Is some of that going to come from even the electric motorcycle community?  There's no doubt. 

Get over it.  Seriously.

You sir are making a mountain out of a molehill, perhaps you shouldn't make things so personal. Good day!

[Ted Dillard]

Sorry you feel that way.  (...and yes, I did see your original response, suggesting I was not impartial.) It's nothing I wouldn't say to anybody, to their face, who is wringing their hands and asking "why do they hate us?".  Any bike owner, any time, any place. In person or online. It's also, by the way, the reaction of several friends I've showed the thread to - both EV owners and not, and some very active in this group.

Is it personal?  No way, but yet another example of me not onboard with the Brammo owner's perspective, calling it as I see it, and being called out as being a hater or, in this case, "getting personal". 

You asked a question, and I've tried to give you a perspective of a lifelong rider from "outside" the Brammo "camp".  I've tried to do it with respect. 

I think I'm done here. 

[kingcharles]

Bikes = Emotions

That's my explanation

I love my Empulse, but if I would have bought a Zero I am sure that I would love that one just as much.

It's probably the Endowment Effect...