Karmic Koben eBike on Kickstarter

[EmpulseRider]

Its no electric motorcycle but I wanted to see what people here think of this eBike:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hongquan/the-kben-a-modern-electric-bike-for-the-human-race

The CTO of Karmic is Neal Saiki, founder of Zero Motorcycles who also worked for Santa Cruz, so they definitely have the technical knowhow to make a great eBike. Target weight for the production model is 36lbs, thats very impressive for an eBike with an aluminum frame.

Most of us know Wes Siler too, he has an article on the bike here:

http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/what-s-wrong-with-electric-bicycles-1702986234

Warning, the comments below the article are... interesting.

[roma258]

Seems like good price for the spec, though they kind of remind me of the chinese delivery bikes that have sprung up around here over the last couple years.

[Shinysideup]

Nice clean design.

IMHO, the main reason for a mid-drive vs. a hub motor is so you can route the power through the gears. But their base model is a single speed, so they forego that advantage. A Shimano internal gear hub wouldn't be too expensive.

Rebuildable battery is nice, but when one cell goes, are not others soon behind?

Don't see attachment point for rear rack and I've never liked carrying a backpack on a bicycle. Seems like a commuter bike should have some luggage carrying features.

[EmpulseRider]

Don't see attachment point for rear rack and I've never liked carrying a backpack on a bicycle. Seems like a commuter bike should have some luggage carrying features.

That question was raised in the comments on this other article from techcrunch.com:
http://techcrunch.com/2015/03/24/karmic-koben/

"I think a commuter bike should have fenders and a rear rack"

Hong Quan:
"We agree, and our frame is made with attachment points for both rack and fenders."

[EmpulseRider]

The NuVinci CVT they use sounds interesting...

[shocker]

You can build the same bike today yourself using eBay parts.  The price is competitive, but my coworker's Vanhawks Valour from from another Kick Starter project has yet to deliver.  I don't like putting money down, have to wait for a year and still no bike.  At least getting on the Brammo Empulse waiting list was free, and they eventually did deliver.

[protomech]

You can build the same bike today yourself using eBay parts.  The price is competitive, but my coworker's Vanhawks Valour from from another Kick Starter project has yet to deliver.  I don't like putting money down, have to wait for a year and still no bike.  At least getting on the Brammo Empulse waiting list was free, and they eventually did deliver.

I'm not really sure you can .. at least with similar quality.

Decent quality bike $500

http://www.goldenmotor.com/ builds some nice quality hub motors. The smaller hub motor, Smart Pie 4, is comparable to the Koben (~400W) and suitable for a smaller battery.

When configured with the following:
- 26" 48V Smart Pie 4 kit
- PAS + thumb throttle
- 7 speed cassette + 160mm disc and activator
- 48V 10Ah lithium pack + BMS + charger + mount

Total comes out to $850 + $290 shipping.

Say $500 for a really nice used bike, and you're sitting at about $1600. Add a bit more for bike computer, brake cutout, various odds and ends and the price is right about what the $1900 kickstarter bike starts at. And the Koben battery pack is likely higher quality; this is the evolution of the various 18650 battery packs NTSworks has been kicking around for several years.

Of course, you have exactly no assurance of delivery with the kickstarter..

I rather like the Koben. If it were available for purchase for $1900 I'd give it a hard thought. Kickstarter worries me, I've seen enough failed projects to make me rather leery, even with Neal Saiki behind it.

[EmpulseRider]

I have yet to be burned by Kickstarter, but have only backed a few projects. I have heard the horror stories though.

Shocker, looks like they are aiming at July 15th to ship the Vanhawks Valour... BTW that bike looks SWEET and the price is impressive.

Im really considering the base Koben at $1337 (early backer price) as my commute is 20 miles each way. Losing $1337 on a failed project would really suck though...

[shocker]

Im really considering the base Koben at $1337 (early backer price) as my commute is 20 miles each way. Losing $1337 on a failed project would really suck though...

We are in the same town with the same hills, so believe me that you would want to have at least 500W if you don't get to gear down.  I am skeptical about the Koben battery.  With it driving only 350W on the 8fun, it is likely not designed to have a high C rating.  It means I can't put a 750W BBS2 mid drive without replacing it or put in another parallel battery.

On my 36V 800W (Errr, 750W) home built, I would usually use 7Ah, with my reasonable effort of pedaling, to do my 24 miles round trip commute.  The stock Koben S may or may not do your commute without your charging at the half way point.  Just like our Empluses, you definitely don't want to drain the battery too low.

[shocker]

I'm not really sure you can .. at least with similar quality.

That is very subjective, but the 8fun system Koben used is a proven and economically system.  Sure, I can agree that the price is not high at all.  One thing I don't like about the Koben is that it is a rather small (not powerful) system.  I personally would want to have at least twice as much power to be useful.

[EmpulseRider]

Im really considering the base Koben at $1337 (early backer price) as my commute is 20 miles each way. Losing $1337 on a failed project would really suck though...

We are in the same town with the same hills, so believe me that you would want to have at least 500W if you don't get to gear down.  I am skeptical about the Koben battery.  With it driving only 350W on the 8fun, it is likely not designed to have a high C rating.  It means I can't put a 750W BBS2 mid drive without replacing it or put in another parallel battery.

On my 36V 800W (Errr, 750W) home built, I would usually use 7Ah, with my reasonable effort of pedaling, to do my 24 miles round trip commute.  The stock Koben S may or may not do your commute without your charging at the half way point.  Just like our Empluses, you definitely don't want to drain the battery too low.

I did a little more research and will probably go with the S... it would be nice having the CVT for hills, of which there are plenty on the routes that I will need to take. I plan to charge at work too. Nice thing is I can take my bike into the office... my cube is just big enough

The motor at 350W in conjunction with the cvt hub should allow me to tackle hills with some effort on my part... I would like to get a good amount of exercise, just not be drenched in sweat when I arrive at the office.

The cells sound like they should be ok:
"We are partnering with Samsung SDI, and their new 32e (3200mAh) cells will be coming out this summer, just in time for our production packs."

[shocker]

The motor at 350W in conjunction with the cvt hub should allow me to tackle hills with some effort on my part... I would like to get a good amount of exercise, just not be drenched in sweat when I arrive at the office.

I think that is the better choice of the two, especially with the bigger battery.  With electric assists, you really only need 2 or 3 properly spaced gears to go anywhere, but nothing wrong with the 360% ratio that the Nuvinci will give you.  I know 250W is for conforming to the European regulation, but 250W in America is barely enough to power kid toys.  To be honest, 8fun often underrates their motor, so I wouldn't be surprised to see their 350W system to draw more than the rated power.

[protomech]

In for an S.

Zero S, Koben S. : )

[Shinysideup]

I live where there are serious hills (San Francisco) and I built a mid-engine bike with a 700W motor run through a Rohloff hub and three front sprockets, including a granny gear. That sucker would haul 400 lbs up a 30 degree incline. Slowly.

http://www.evalbum.com/676

So rather than the range of the internal hub they use, I'd like to know the gear inches of their lowest ratio.

EDIT: I found my own answer:

http://64.66.190.27/Docs/GearInchChart_N360.pdf

[kingcharles]

You could just buy the strohmer
Or my personal favourite:
http://turbo.specialized.com/