Author Topic: who manufactures batteries Brammo ?  (Read 7533 times)

katacrak

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who manufactures batteries Brammo ?
« on: June 04, 2015, 10:02:10 AM »
Today have asked me who makes the batteries of our bikes ? particularly if Tesla had something to do with it . Someone can tell me about this topic

roma258

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Re: who manufactures batteries Brammo ?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2015, 12:08:51 PM »
Today have asked me who makes the batteries of our bikes ? particularly if Tesla had something to do with it . Someone can tell me about this topic
I think the design is in-house. As far as who actually manufactures them, I'm not sure that's ever been explicitly stated:
https://www.brammo.com/products/ess-energy-storage-systems/lithium-ion-traction-batteries/
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 03:37:19 PM by roma258 »

EmpulseRider

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Re: who manufactures batteries Brammo ?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2015, 02:14:51 PM »
The cells are manufactured in China, though the supplier remains a mystery. I am pretty sure the race bikes use Farasis batteries... I think.
I had some random moron TELL me that the batteries in my bike were made by Boeing... he suggested that I should be aware that they could catch fire.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 02:17:11 PM by EmpulseRider »

BrammoQC

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Re: who manufactures batteries Brammo ?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2015, 04:36:10 PM »
Brammo Power Modules are Proudly Designed, Developed and Assembled in Talent, Oregon by Brammo, Inc. This should help put the issue to rest. Enjoy your Empulse!




Ted Dillard

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Re: who manufactures batteries Brammo ?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2015, 05:33:44 PM »
Brammo Power Modules are Proudly Designed, Developed and Assembled in Talent, Oregon by Brammo, Inc. This should help put the issue to rest. Enjoy your Empulse!

Why, because of your use of Caps?  ...please.   :o

Sure, like everybody else, Brammo designs and assembles it's packs.  But the cells?  You're not trying to suggest you're making your own cells, or even speccing your own cells, are you? 

Last I was told was Brammo, (as is also Zero), is using Farasis cells.  If that's not correct, maybe someone can "put the issue to rest" in a real way. 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 04:02:02 PM by Ted Dillard »

BrammoQC

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Re: who manufactures batteries Brammo ?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2015, 10:20:52 PM »
No Ted, but my spelling is spot on (designes???)  :-\

Anyway, nothing in my statement was false or misleading. The question was "who makes the battery?"...question answered.
 
Thanks.


protomech

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Re: who manufactures batteries Brammo ?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2015, 11:37:55 PM »
BrammoQC is correct in a way; Brammo makes / assembles the battery, using component cells from a as-far-as-I-know unnamed Chinese supplier.

Tesla likewise assembles their own battery packs using cells made by Panasonic.

Brammo Power Modules are Proudly Designed, Developed and Assembled in Talent, Oregon by Brammo, Inc. This should help put the issue to rest. Enjoy your Empulse!

Why, because or your use of Caps?  ...please.   :o

Sure, like everybody else, Brammo designes and assembles it's packs.  But the cells?  You're not trying to suggest you're making your own cells, or even speccing your own cells, are you? 

Last I was told was Brammo, (as is also Zero), is using Farasis cells.  If that's not correct, maybe someone can "put the issue to rest" in a real way.

I've never seen the production or pre-2013 cell supplier(s) stated; I assume it is the same supplier and possibly even the same line of 10Ah pouch cells.

However, I do not believe the production supplier is Farasis; this post from BrammoBrian certainly reads like they changed suppliers in 2013 for the race bike only.
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Ted Dillard

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Re: who manufactures batteries Brammo ?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2015, 04:06:52 PM »
Thanks for checking my spelling...  :D  (fixed) 

To my knowledge the information about the source of the cells has never come from Brammo, just comments like the above.  I was told by other sources in the industry, and several unrelated sources.  Still, it could be wrong, but it's clear Brammo is not manufacturing their own cells. 

Word-mincing and innuendo aside, it'd be nice to have someone from Brammo divulge the source of the cells, though I'm certainly not holding my breath. 

Brammo, Mission and others claim to "produce" their powertrains, as well, but that's clearly not the case - at least as the case is presented, either: https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/06/02/breadcrumbs-amracing-brammo-lightning/

« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 04:09:49 PM by Ted Dillard »

Shinysideup

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Re: who manufactures batteries Brammo ?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2015, 09:54:58 PM »
Yes, Ted, AMRacing's site says they have partnered with Brammo and Lightning, but, although I'm certainly not anywhere near a technical/engineering  authority, their motors and battery packs, to me, show no resemblance to anything I've seen on my Empulse.

 AFAIK, for example, Brammo has partnered with Parker for their motors, not anything close to an oil-cooled 350 hp motor from AMRacing. I'm curious: Do you have more granular information?

Of course, now I really NEED a 350 hp motor on my bike!  ;D

Ted Dillard

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Re: who manufactures batteries Brammo ?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2015, 04:36:07 AM »
I really can't say who I've talked to or what they've said at this point, but I can tell you I'm not just going by a couple of lines on their site... nor am I guessing by what looks similar to anything on your bike.  ;)

Sorry, maybe my post seems overly snarky or nit-picky, but as you may or may not know, I'm working on putting together an accurate history of this stuff, and the constant spin that I'm facing from almost every angle, in tracking events and development gets a little tedious.  Sure, if a company is subbing another company to design and build something, it's not uncommon to claim it's their effort - and ultimately it's an issue that's between them and their shareholders...  but some groups are more forthcoming than others.  Sure, what was posted is technically accurate, but still suggestive and misleading by omission, in my opinion - and it's an established habit. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" indeed.

Perfect example with Tesla, thanks.  Everybody knows they use Panasonic cells, and they build their own packs, because Tesla doesn't represent that information in any way but the actual facts.

"Who makes the battery?" is not answered.  "Who makes the battery pack?" is.  This may seem unimportant to some, but at a point in history when battery chemistry is hugely important to the performance of a product, and development is happening on a scale of months, and I'm immensely concerned with the "confluence" of technologies in the evolution of these bikes?  It's important to me.  But maybe this isn't the place for this discussion.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/952491968/power-in-flux-the-history-of-electric-motorcycles

« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 05:48:21 AM by Ted Dillard »

protomech

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Re: who manufactures batteries Brammo ?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2015, 07:49:32 AM »
Hm, great. Post died while typing.

Production Empulse battery modules use cells manufactured in China. The modules are designed and assembled by Brammo in Ashland.
Quote
Powering the more potent Empulse motor is a pack of seven BPM-15/90 battery packs. Designed in-house by Brammo (the name stands for Brammo Power Module – 15 Volts with 90 Amp-hour capacity) each module is comprised of approximately 250 lithium-ion cells, which are manufactured to spec in China, then tested and assembled in Ashland.

Brammo switched to Farasis cells in 2013 for their race bike. Previous supplier not stated.
Quote
During last weekend they'd also switched cell suppliers. This is something Brian had told me about at Laguna Seca, but he didn't want to name the supplier. Shane's bike crapped out during the Laguna Seca race, and Brian is using that as proof the old "RR packs were getting tired and were in dire need of replacement cells". The new battery cell sponsor and supplier is Farasis Energy, of Hayward California. Brian described them as "fantastic cells that are proving to be just the ticket for dealing with these long straights at Indy" and that the "capacity at high C-rates is awesome!"

Largely mirrors information
.
Quote
There is one major change on both Eric and Shane's bikes for this race - the addition of a primary battery cell sponsor and supplier in Farasis Energy. On the return van ride from Laguna just last month, the team stopped by the Farasis headquarters in Hayward, CA to pick up our new custom race cells for the RRs. The timing couldn't have been better. Shane's DNF at Laguna was proof that the RR packs were getting tired and were in dire need of replacement cells. Farasis have stepped in to provide some fantastic cells that are proving to be just the ticket for dealing with these long straights at Indy. The capacity at high C-rates is awesome!

That's not the definite statement you or I would like - "We used to use cells supplied by X, now we use cells supplied by Y" - but it's pretty close.

***

I wrote about the history of the Brammo batteries from the Enertia to the Empulse here, go check it out.

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Brammo hosts a smugmug where they throw up lots of high-quality photos documenting the company history. They also show detailed photos of the assembly of their three primary modules: BPM 15/90 (as in the Empulse), BPM 44/70 (as used in the Enertia Plus), and their new modulithic module.

The modulithic module appears to be similar to the race bike module.... I'm really trying to remember where I've seen the race module opened up, but I recall the architecture being similar to the modulithic module. High voltage, 4 cells in parallel. The RR module can change the number of cells installed in series based upon desired capacity, weight, and voltage; at Daytona 2013 for example they ran the modules right at the maximum voltage of the motor or controller in order to maximize top speed on the straights.

Brammo has a nice shot of a disassembled modulithic module here, showing 4 cells mounted across with a model designation IMP1060160P10A, followed presumably by lot or batch information.

If you google this model designation, there's a single result for a Chinese CV.
Quote
2012-07-01 / 2013-05-01: ****** Job Title: Product development assistant Job Description: After graduating from college in Ganzhou 2012.7 Fu Technology Co., Ltd. began operation in various positions to learn from the grassroots. 2013 January was transferred to the engineering department assistant engineer doing development products, mainly responsible for experiments IMP1060160P10A and ICP1060160P10A batteries production, testing, data reporting, and some incoming test, and help tutor complete APQP work plan.

Perhaps IMP = manganese, ICP = cobalt? Just a guess. Curious who the company translated as "Fu Technology Co" is. Farasis perhaps, or a subcontractor?

Farasis lists two large pouch cells on their product page:

IMP-1060158-P10: 60 x 158 x 10mm, 10 Ah
IMP-06160230-P25: 160 x 230 x 6mm, 25 Ah

The 25 Ah cells are used in the 2013-2014 Zero bikes. The 2015 S/DS/SR use new 27 Ah cells, which are reportedly slightly more energy dense but slightly less power-dense. Apparently Brammo is using a newer 10 Ah cell in their modulithic module, and presumably the same cell or very similar in their 2013 Empulse RR refresh.

I haven't been able to find anything definite about the cells used in the production Brammo bikes. Brammo has a shot of their 3 modules with four cells in front, implying perhaps that the production modules can or do use the same cells as the modulithic module.

Where is the modulithic module used? Perhaps in the side-by-side converted by Brammo .. or maybe in an electric version of the Polaris slingshot?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 07:54:49 AM by protomech »
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00049 (AKA SopFu)

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Re: who manufactures batteries Brammo ?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2015, 09:29:43 AM »
I am not sure why the battery discussion is so important. Brammo isn't a battery company, and it doesn't sound like they want to be one, either. As someone who works very close to the bleeding edge of battery R&D, I think that's a good thing for Brammo. Despite the fact that they are closely related, battery design makes drivetrain development look like child's play. Until Brammo starts moving towards novel chemistries (the single-layered NMC used in the Empulse has now been patented by 3M for 15 years), there is no benefit in spending a lot of time or effort in that arena, anyway.
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Ted Dillard

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Re: who manufactures batteries Brammo ?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2015, 10:25:38 AM »
From my perspective, and from the thesis of the book project, battery development is one of the absolutely most important factors in the development of electric motorcycles.  But that's me.   ::)

The fact that the cells come from a company in China, if in fact they do, is fairly immaterial considering that a vast majority of lithium cells come from China, Korea and Japan. ...a the string of breadcrumbs you've put together is impressive, however, inconclusive at the very best. 

I'd really highly recommend reading both Bottled Lightning and The Powerhouse.  I've been telling everybody that lately. 

First, you forget how much a good, well-researched book has in it for real, detailed and profoundly interesting information, compared to snippets found through Google on the internet.  You also are reminded of what is involved in actually sorting fact from fiction.  Speaking to actual people is pretty high on my list. Specific to this conversation, for a timeline and subject as outwardly simple as a bunch of labs working on battery chemistry, both books show how convoluted and complex the story really is.  Almost all of what I'd gathered as fact about, say, the development of the Volt cells for example, was just flat wrong, according to both accounts.

You're facing that regardless, but it's so much more difficult when the manufacturer is not forthright in discussing it, when, honestly, any IP associated with it has a half-life of months (if that), and companies like Tesla will freely discuss it.   
 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 10:28:23 AM by Ted Dillard »

00049 (AKA SopFu)

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Re: who manufactures batteries Brammo ?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2015, 11:32:31 AM »
Ted, I'll shoot you a friend request on Facebook (been thinking of doing that for a while). Due to my official position, I can't/won't speak on a lot of topics. But I can probably give you better direction than a lot of private investigators.

Next time you're spinning through Chicago, I'd be happy to arrange a tour through Argonne. :)
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Ted Dillard

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Re: who manufactures batteries Brammo ?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2015, 03:13:49 PM »
THAT is something I'd make a trip for, special!  :D