Author Topic: Parts and Service availability - legal ramifications?  (Read 439 times)

frodus

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 475
    • View Profile
Parts and Service availability - legal ramifications?
« on: July 17, 2017, 12:23:34 PM »
I've seen a few people mentioning they can't get parts, or that their bike has been in the shop waiting for parts for a long period of time. I'm concerned by this, as I'll be looking for a few wear parts in the future (sprockets, pads, etc). I'd also like to ensure that there are at least parts available if something were to break, like the shifter mechanism or any seals for the transmission, and even internal gears.

I've looked around and if people are within the warranty period, the manufacture MUST provide replacement parts to that person, and service. If they cannot, then reparations are required, up to and including purchasing the vehicle back.

For people outside the warranty period, I've found some interesting information online. The manufacturer must provide spare parts for all vehicles until the warranty on their last vehicle sold. That means, if they sell the last Empulse today, then they're required to have spare parts available for at least the warranty period (2 years) from today.

https://www.justanswer.com/employment-law/70rr7-federal-law-concerning-oem-parts-availability-automobile-lines-bee.html

and this

https://www.justanswer.com/consumer-protection-law/66qyn-does-car-manufacturer-obligation-provide-parts.html

Can others post any legal justification for Victory (and it's Owner Polaris) to supply parts and service for our vehicles? From my understanding, some Canadian owners are seeking legal help as well.

I might get my lawyer friend to weigh in, as this is becoming a bigger problem for people.


The issue for me, is that the bike is being sold still, yet there's no parts available for it.

siai47

  • Enertia Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Parts and Service availability - legal ramifications?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2017, 07:01:46 PM »
It's time to face the fact that Polaris isn't going to offer parts or service in any reasonable manner for the Empulse TT.  I just heard from my dealer that the gasket kit for the Empulse TT transmission is not available.  As many as you know, I tried to get the crush washers for the transmission after doing an oil change and was told by Polaris (via the dealer) that the washers were not sold separately and I would need to buy the entire transmission.  I found a part number on the Polaris website for a gasket kit that included the crush washers for $140.  Two months ago, I paid the money and ordered the kit.  The dealer got word from Polaris that the gasket kit isn't available and I needed to order the entire transmission if I needed a gasket.  So, even if the part is shown and a part number and price listed, the part doesn't really exist.  I am tempted to order the transmission (around $3K) and see if it comes in---bet it isn't available.

So I would expect that Polaris' internal solution is to abandon the bike entirely, hope they last throughout the warranty period and resolve warranty claims on a case by case basis to try to keep from being sued by the customer.  This means no wear parts, no crash parts, only provable warranty claims during the two year period and hope the fleet goes away.  After the warranty, you are on your own.  Not the way to handle things in the 21st century with class action lawyers crawling around everywhere.  It shouldn't be like this, the bike was purchased in good faith and the manufacturer should stand up and support the product in good faith.  I was told that parts and service would be provided for this motorcycle and was lied to.  That isn't right. 

When the bike breaks down and can't be serviced, it will still look nice in my living room as a display and a reminder to me to never, ever, buy a Polaris product and to talk anybody I know about avoiding anything their company sells.  A company that treats their customers and dealers like crap doesn't deserve any business.   

EmpulseRider

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Parts and Service availability - legal ramifications?
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2017, 08:49:36 AM »
And they are still selling new ones! ??? Heck, if your thinking about throwing $3k at the transmission, its almost worth it to spend a few grand more, get a new one and use your current bike as a donor bike. Right now I am seeing a handful listed on cycletrader.com for just under $6k. But with no parts or real warranty support, thats still high. I would pick one up today for $4k if only to part it out... perhaps sell the non-empulse-specific parts on eBay to recoup as much as I could.

I have around 12k miles on my Empulse R with ZERO issues so far... but I know the party has got to end at some point.

My hope is that Polaris is still hashing out the consolidation of the Victory brand, and the Empulse is just sitting at the end of the list of loose ends. Damn...
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 08:51:26 AM by EmpulseRider »

Richard230

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Parts and Service availability - legal ramifications?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2017, 09:30:52 AM »
I have read several times in the past that many government regulations meant to help out automobile owners, such as ones requiring keeping parts available for a certain number of years after the last sale and lemon-laws, do not apply to motorcycles. (As usual, motorcycle owners get no respect from government legislators and regulators.  :( )  So before anyone tries to sue Polaris for abandoning the Empulse, they have better do some thorough research on the subject regarding the laws in your particular state or country.

I might add, that Zero has come right out and said that they will not support any motorcycles that they made before the 2013 models were introduced (such as my daughter's 2012S).  They will sell you whatever parts they still have on their shelves, but when those are gone you are SOL. (I suspect that they burned a few bridges when they switched from the battery and motor suppliers that they used in their pre-2013 models to the current in-house motor and Farsis batteries.)
current bikes: 2014 14.2 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

siai47

  • Enertia Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Parts and Service availability - legal ramifications?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2017, 01:21:00 PM »
If it's a motorcycle or a toaster and the manufacturer offers a warranty, then parts and service are required during said warranty period--period!  That is the law.  After that a reasonable company would supply service and parts for their products for a reasonable period of time.  Polaris isn't acting like a reasonable company.

Virtually Yours

  • Brammoholic
  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 269
    • View Profile
Re: Parts and Service availability - legal ramifications?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2017, 02:53:17 PM »
What a fiasco!  >:(
Looks like it's donor bikes and sourcing parts from where Brammo got parts.., I.e. Parker, SEVCON, etc.
My understanding is the only thing that Brammo made themselves where the Batteries...
So has anyone tried contacting these companies directly?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 03:04:00 PM by Virtually Yours »
Actually Mine,
#42
Empluse R

skuzzle

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 232
    • View Profile
Re: Parts and Service availability - legal ramifications?
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2017, 03:58:22 PM »
Looks like it's donor bikes and sourcing parts from where Brammo got parts.., I.e. Parker, SEVCON, etc.

It looks like Sevcon parts might disappear as well...https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2017/07/17/1047327/0/en/Sevcon-Signs-Definitive-Agreement-to-be-Acquired-by-BorgWarner.html

HadesOmega

  • Enertia Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 52
  • #139
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Parts and Service availability - legal ramifications?
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2017, 04:52:46 PM »
Why would merging with Borg Warner make their parts not available?  If anything it would make it more available wouldn't it?  Borg Warner sells tons of autoparts.  Maybe you could order their parts through autozone who knows.  But yeah all these mergings to kind of make a mess of things don't they?
2016 Victory Empulse TT - #139

nunux59

  • Enciter
  • **
  • Posts: 33
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Parts and Service availability - legal ramifications?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2017, 03:33:35 PM »
The problem with the motor controller is that it also contains Brammo software. Without access to it and without a way to upload it, it is quite useless. I am trying to get the software and cables to talk to the motor controller and it really not an easy task as a final consumer. I don't know if it is the same for the on-board charger but it could also be problematic.

frodus

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 475
    • View Profile
Re: Parts and Service availability - legal ramifications?
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2017, 01:34:39 PM »
The charger doesn't have anything custom, it's just a CANbus charger, taking commands from the VCU. Problem is, they don't make them anymore (Eltec Valere PowerCharger 3000).

The controller is simple, and I have the DCF files that go into it for the different motors (the R had a different one than the E1). I saved them off me and a friend's motorcycle. I have the DVT software and IXXAT CAN dongle.

nunux59

  • Enciter
  • **
  • Posts: 33
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Parts and Service availability - legal ramifications?
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2017, 02:42:59 PM »
So we rely on you frodus for when our bike will out of order :-D . I put a hand on the DVT software but I didn't took the time to install it yet. Even if it instalsl and work correctly I need a compatible CAN dongle...

frodus

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 475
    • View Profile
Re: Parts and Service availability - legal ramifications?
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2017, 10:13:41 AM »
Potentially, I'm willing to help a little.

The controllers don't fail often though, so I think you're good there.

I'm more worried about the firmware, faults, VCU, and BMS.

The controller and motor I'm not so concerned about. It's the proprietary stuff.