Author Topic: I wish Brammo/Victory were still around  (Read 5191 times)

Richard230

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I wish Brammo/Victory were still around
« on: June 05, 2018, 04:57:16 PM »
I really wish that Brammo or Victory were still making electric motorcycles. Zero really needs more competition in the mass consumer electric vehicle market. From my point of view, Zero hasn't made much progress in their technology since at least 2014.

I owned a 2014 S with their Power Tank, which I gave to my daughter who is still riding it.  Late last year I bought the exact same 2018 model and I can hardly tell the difference between the two years.  The power, speed, range and features are just about the same, as is the onboard charger.  The chassis is also the same, other than the use of Showa suspension and the installation of ABS (required for sales in Europe), which are the major improvements to the 2017/2018 models.

So there just hasn't been much technical progress as far as I am concerned during the past 4 years.  I really expected more and I have a feeling that if Brammo/Victory was still in the market, I bet Zero would have put more effort into their EV advancements.  :(
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Brammofan

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Re: I wish Brammo/Victory were still around
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2018, 07:27:31 PM »
Dang, Richard. Just when I think you're going to leave me with no source of sage advice, you drop something amazing on the forum. Thanks, and I agree.

It seems like every year we expect something revolutionary from Zero. It's been a few years since any innovation came from them. Maybe next year will be different, finally, now that Brian Wismann has settled in.
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Richard230

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Re: I wish Brammo/Victory were still around
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2018, 07:29:52 PM »
Dang, Richard. Just when I think you're going to leave me with no source of sage advice, you drop something amazing on the forum. Thanks, and I agree.

It seems like every year we expect something revolutionary from Zero. It's been a few years since any innovation came from them. Maybe next year will be different, finally, now that Brian Wismann has settled in.

Maybe, but he still has to get past Zero's cheap board of directors and its private investors.  ???
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Ultratoad

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Re: I wish Brammo/Victory were still around
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2018, 08:05:38 PM »
Totally agree....  Especially being the very happy (so far) owner of an Empulse TT....  I wonder what could have been if development had continued on the product....  I do believe that Brammo would have done more with development than Polaris though....  It is impressive what a little company like Brammo was able to accomplish....

HadesOmega

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Re: I wish Brammo/Victory were still around
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2018, 03:29:39 AM »
Yeah it would have been nice to see if Polaris would have been able to further develop the Empulse and possibly have accessories for the older bikes.  I mean they did update the Empulse with the TT and made a few accessories for it.  They even won the Pikes Peak Hillclimb.  Hopefully they cook something up.

I know for Zero they did come out with the faster charging charge tank that can supposedly charge at 6kw.
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jazz999

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Re: I wish Brammo/Victory were still around
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2018, 04:57:52 PM »
Brammo was ahead of it's time with the Empulse and certainly ahead of Zero at that point in both technology and especially design.  Zero is just bland in design and all they seem to do is up the battery a little every year and add a few things.  On the Zero forum many people having issue with their recent firmware updates also.

Polaris bought Brammo's motorcycles, gave it a go with Victory Empulse for 1 year with poor marketing and then gave up.  Sad.

ttxgpfan

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Re: I wish Brammo/Victory were still around
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2018, 01:14:04 AM »
Zero has always had consistent issues with recalls. So continued issues are of no surprise, but a dissapointment. You would think at some point if they aren't innovating they would have the time to get the bugs worked out. But Zero, after they kicked out the guy who started the company originally, it went full corporate. And their actions match those of a company run by a board whose mission is to make investors money. Although I'm not even sure they are a publicly traded company. Brammo was started and stayed under the control of an entrepreneur with passion. Zero won, Brammo lost. Zero hasn't innovated in years, yet I keep hearing the word associated with them. They have however evolved their bikes. But that reminds me of the days you would buy a Zero and the next year it was obsolete. They are going to milk this cow for as long as they can. They have no competition. $40k Lightnings that are just NOW getting made, maybe. $25k Energicas that could be as unreliable as a Ducati. Please. Cheap junk bikes from China. They are going to sit where they are and save their money and wait for the tech to come to them until somebody forces them to innovate. Which really, I feel is the smart play anyway. Motorcyclists, in the few years I actively blogged, proved how conservative they are, especially in relation to automotive enthusiasts. There was some inial excitement, but look at how well formula E is doing. Now that the FIA has pulled their heads out, have a spec race series and MotoGP stars on the bikes, maybe excitement will pick back up. But I feel that is not going to be the case. Electric motorcycles are going to be 10 years behind electric cars in adaption. And I have a feeling that the used market is what is going to really drive adaption rates in both markets. I miss Brammo as much as anyone but looking at things as they are now, and reflecting on how things were 7 years ago, letting Zero coast, as much as it grates on my last nerve, really seems like the reasonable thing to do for now.

Richard230

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Re: I wish Brammo/Victory were still around
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2018, 10:20:50 AM »
Zero is a privately-held corporation and is tightly run by their (tightwad) board. That is why it is so tough to find much information about what is going on with the company - especially how many motorcycle "units" they have sold every year, except where they are required to post their sale numbers by law in some countries (which does not include the U.S.).  If they were a publicly-traded company we would be able to find out a lot more about their yearly profit and sales.

I just hope Zero doesn't run out of funding, like Alta has done recently and then disappear into the pages of another book written by Ted Dillard.  :o
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

HadesOmega

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Re: I wish Brammo/Victory were still around
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2018, 04:59:45 AM »
What really gets me is the pace at which electric automobiles are going is way ahead of motorcycles.  In 2019 many extended range (200+ miles) EVs are going to be released.  You hear talks about the fastest chargers ever being built are right around the corner.  Speed records are constantly being broken.  I rented a Tesla Model 3 for my birthday and I tried charging it at a Level 2 charger and it would literally take a whole day to charge, from a supercharger I could literally watch it charge, it would hit 70+kwh while charging.  Imagine if you could charge an Empulse off of a Tesla Supercharger you'd have a full charge in about 10 minutes from empty.  I think Energica has the right idea they already have level 3 charging, they're a step ahead of the game.  I don't see why it's so difficult to implement DC fastcharging, the charger isn't onboard.

Electric cars are rapidly catching up to their gasoline counterparts, but electric motorcycles are not catching up their gasoline counterparts.
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Leander

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Re: I wish Brammo/Victory were still around
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2018, 07:27:19 AM »
if and when the batteries die on my empulse, i'm confident that I can replace them with something that will make all our wishes come true :)

I already made a 3D mock up of the existing pack housing (the 7 black boxes) with on the market available cells.
with that setup it's possible to put more than 16KWh on the empulse and even liquid cool and heat those cells.
so DC charging will be possible to.
the bike would still look stock :)
 
if I would really go for it, it will need a bigger motor controller (sevcon gen5 size9 for a 50KW/100KW motor (magnax 185))
but then it won't be road legal any more :(

but first get it running again with a alternate fuse setup this winter...
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 02:54:24 PM by Leander »

Richard230

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Re: I wish Brammo/Victory were still around
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2018, 09:27:51 AM »
What really gets me is the pace at which electric automobiles are going is way ahead of motorcycles.  In 2019 many extended range (200+ miles) EVs are going to be released.  You hear talks about the fastest chargers ever being built are right around the corner.  Speed records are constantly being broken.  I rented a Tesla Model 3 for my birthday and I tried charging it at a Level 2 charger and it would literally take a whole day to charge, from a supercharger I could literally watch it charge, it would hit 70+kwh while charging.  Imagine if you could charge an Empulse off of a Tesla Supercharger you'd have a full charge in about 10 minutes from empty.  I think Energica has the right idea they already have level 3 charging, they're a step ahead of the game.  I don't see why it's so difficult to implement DC fastcharging, the charger isn't onboard.

Electric cars are rapidly catching up to their gasoline counterparts, but electric motorcycles are not catching up their gasoline counterparts.

And that helps to illustrate why I started this thread.  Without any real affordable high-performance completion in the electric motorcycle "industry", there is no need to innovate.  Zero is not going to up their game unless they are forced to do so either by government regulations or by competition from other manufacturers.  And apparently they are not too worried about Energica, H-D, Lightning, that European bug-thing, the BMW scooter, or whatever else is hanging around in the fringes of the EV motorcycle sales market.
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Drivingthefuture

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Re: I wish Brammo/Victory were still around
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2019, 02:37:33 AM »
We will see what this new bike from Zero has to offer...

Richard230

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Re: I wish Brammo/Victory were still around
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2019, 09:36:07 AM »
We will see what this new bike from Zero has to offer...

My guess is that it will be a "street fighter" (the "F" in the designation) designed to take on the H-D LiveWire.  After all, Zero has had plenty of time to get ready for the introduction of the Wire.   ;)  I figure that the price will be somewhere around $20K.  ???
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Drivingthefuture

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Re: I wish Brammo/Victory were still around
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2019, 04:46:16 PM »
Sounds about right. I never thought of the F standing for fighter that's good... Also, today is a very happy day, because instead of shelling out 20-30k for slightly better specs, I may have come across the Brammo Empulse deal of a lifetime... guy says it is working and only wants $1,100 dollars for it... he found it in a storage unit he won at auction. I'm pretty sure it's the R spec because all the body work is carbon fiber.

PaulHMartinez

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Re: I wish Brammo/Victory were still around
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2019, 10:03:33 AM »
Did you get it?