Author Topic: Enertia 2.0 speculation...timing...  (Read 4404 times)

Phantom

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Re: Enertia 2.0 speculation...range/value
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2010, 03:49:22 PM »
Is anybody getting anywhere near that range?

I have gone 35 miles with 7% battery charge left per the instrument cluster, so I think 42 miles is reasonable. I rarely go beyond 25 miles between charges and I typically ride too fast to get a 42 mile range. 

EmpulseRider

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Re: Enertia 2.0 speculation...timing...
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2010, 05:08:10 PM »
I dont think 60 miles is entirely unreasonable, well maybe at that price, I agree. Lets say they put a 4.0 battery in the Enertia plus. It manages 42 from 3.1 so 42 / 3.1 * 4 = 54.19. Perhaps some tweaks here and there and some Brammo Power magic would push that number to 60. Who knows! The Empulse 6.0 is at 9995 which is quite amazing and that's 2 more kWh of battery there too.

Perhaps at 7495 (original) and 8495 (plus) would be more reasonable. Margins are probably pretty small for Brammo though.

I would like to see a dual sport Enertia too...

BrammoBrian

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Re: Enertia 2.0 speculation...range/value
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2010, 05:27:44 PM »
Is anybody getting anywhere near that range?

I have gone 35 miles with 7% battery charge left per the instrument cluster, so I think 42 miles is reasonable. I rarely go beyond 25 miles between charges and I typically ride too fast to get a 42 mile range.  

Just wanted to take this opportunity to discuss range a bit more completely.  After many thousands of miles of testing and reviewing data from multiple rides with the same rider, different rider, varying conditions, varying temperature, varying road surface, etc, etc... I can hopefully shed some light on what range figures mean when they're presented by a manufacturer.  

The 42 mile Enertia range claim is based on actual dynamometer testing of the production bike on the EPA's LA4 (FTP75) drive cycle which is intended to represent urban driving.  This testing was done as a part of a thorough product qualification initiated by Best Buy as they did not want to end up with customer complaints over range.  FYI - This is the same drive cycle that Nissan uses to claim 100 miles range on their Leaf and a piece of the drive cycle used by Tesla to claim their 245 mile range as well (they combine it with a highway drive cycle). This is also the drive cycle that is roughly meant to be replicated by the Pomona Loop CARB test in California to qualify for the $1500 CARB rebate.  True to the dyno results, the Enertia was able to travel the required 38 miles (two 19 mile loops) on a single charge without going into a "limp mode" and in fact still had greater than 20% battery capacity remaining at the end of the 2 loops.  

The truth is that the LA4 drive cycle seems to be a rather poor representation of actual usage of vehicles these days as drivers are becoming more aggressive and speeds in general are increasing.  So… while the range claim is true (as opposed to being the result of an optimistic marketing department), it obviously does not accurately predict everyday riding range by a variety of rider types and weights.  The effects of even the same rider driving at varying average speeds (i.e. different driving cycles) can be as dramatic as a 2x decrease in riding range.  Our attempt to better illustrate this for predictive purposes was originally shown with this graphic and we are working on ways to explain these issues even more concisely.  Unfortunately, it is a complicated and variable metric that we (and other OEMs) are attempting to condense into a single figure for the benefit of easy digestion by the customer with varied success thus far…



As a side note, Rob, our Zen and the Art of E Motorcycle Maintenance rider, has the record for range on a single charge.  He was able to pull multiple stints of over 55 miles on his Enertia!  
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 05:29:32 PM by BrammoBrian »

thespecialone

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Re: Enertia 2.0 speculation...timing...
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2010, 06:44:52 PM »
The rider does make a huge difference. We have customers who consistently get 50+ miles plus on a single charge. And we have riders like me who love the feel of going from zero to 30 at every opportunity around town and I get about 30 miles. Although thats a guess as I never get below about 30% state of charge.

Talking with Rob who rode from Minnesota to San Fran recently it was fascinating to hear how adapted his style to maximise range....more of which another day.

The orginal 42 miles was calculated by MNSU:
The test involves driving the vehicle on a dynamometer that “simulates” driving on the road. This is required to make sure that every vehicle is driven under the same conditions each time the test is run to eliminate variability. The drive cycle is called the Federal Test Procedure 75 LA4 (FTP LA4) and simulates a driving cycle on US highway #4 in LA, California. Figure 2 is the trace the vehicle must follow when conducting the test. The “X” axis is time in seconds and the “Y” axis is vehicle speed in MPH.

Adrian

HighlanderMWC

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Re: Enertia 2.0 speculation...range/value
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2010, 01:42:36 PM »
Is anybody getting anywhere near that range?

I have gone 35 miles with 7% battery charge left per the instrument cluster, so I think 42 miles is reasonable. I rarely go beyond 25 miles between charges and I typically ride too fast to get a 42 mile range. 

Good to hear. I was assuming that my range was mostly limited by my route (the hills) but had not actually heard anybody else's range experience and didn't want to take a number (42) as gospel without some riders' real-world experiences backing it up.

Is anybody measuring kWh consumption at the outlet?

As a point of reference I frequently see 8% on the cluster after 24 miles of my commute. By varying the riding style I can get some variation  (i.e. 14% remaining) but not enough where even 34 miles would be believable (if the cluster is correct on my return trip -- I get a major drop after my last hill).


Brammofan

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Re: Enertia 2.0 speculation...range/value
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2010, 01:52:36 PM »

Is anybody measuring kWh consumption at the outlet?

This owner is:
Jason
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protomech

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Re: Enertia 2.0 speculation...range/value
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2010, 01:42:24 PM »

Is anybody measuring kWh consumption at the outlet?

This owner is:
Jason
Excellent. Is this user on brammoforum?

Assume:
* wall energy consumed while charging is proportional to pack energy discharged
* pack is linear with respect to range per capacity

Based on the first day 1% remaining capacity, his lower/upper quartile pack range is between 29.5 to 36.3 miles, median 33.9 miles. He has a fairly short commute which works well with the enertia.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 02:35:56 PM by protomech »
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Brammofan

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Re: Enertia 2.0 speculation...range/value
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2010, 01:57:17 PM »

Excellent. Is this user on brammoforum?

Yes.  He is ppc750: Here's his profile.
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HighlanderMWC

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Re: Enertia 2.0 speculation...range/value
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2010, 07:28:30 PM »
Assume:
* wall energy consumed while charging is proportional to pack energy discharged
* pack is linear with respect to range per capacity

Based on the first day 1% remaining capacity, his lower/upper quartile pack range is between 29.5 to 36.3 miles, median 33.9 miles. He has a fairly short commute which works well with the enertia.

- the linear assumption might not hold -- I'm travelling almost twice the distance and consuming less than twice the kWh at the outlet (don't think I've seen more than 3.2kWh for 24 miles)

- Note that the kWh at the outlet will also include charging beyond that used to recharge the batteries (i.e. balancing). This can be significant over say a weekend (think I've seen .5kWh over a weekend).

- I have questions about how the remaining charge % is being measured...I can get quite different results depending on exactly how I look at this after my commute (typically it starts climbing up).

- One interesting observation is that the range remaining (starts from 34mi) tends to decrease 1:1 with my elapsed trip (i.e. range estimate + tripmeter = 34mi is maintained). This typically holds true unless I use 100% throttle or until I hit the first of the "big" hills on the return trip.


« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 07:34:58 PM by HighlanderMWC »

SamM

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Re: Enertia 2.0 speculation...timing...
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2010, 03:32:45 AM »
I'd like to see an updated Enertia with increased range. As soon as they bring one to market, I'm in. Just waiting now. 42 miles+/- is cutting it close for me. On the days that I work, I can make it 19 miles into town and recharge at work, but if I'm not working I'll need to use another bike. 42 miles will get me there and back but if I have errands to run, I'd be dead in the water with nowhere to recharge. Recharging stations would save my bacon, but in the middle of Coal Country that isn't likely to happen anytime soon. Barnes & Noble would probably let me recharge there but I need a bike so I can approach them about it. I'd like to be the first in my area to get one of these but I'd like more range for the rural riding that I do and the mountains. Of course, if Brammo were to give me one based on where I live, the COAL FIELDS of West Virginia it wouldn't matter to me. I might even buy some solar panels to recharge it, with the money I saved. Come on guys I really need one of these! 

Hey, what is Brammo's company slogan? How about these?

Saving the Planet, One Motorcycle at a time!

Energy Independence, One Motorcycle at a time!

Better Solutions for a Better Planet!

Sorry, did figure it would hurt any to plug myself as the next one to get an Enertia! ::)

SamM

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Re: Enertia 2.0 speculation...timing...
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2010, 06:52:50 AM »
Hiya Sam... I think we're all waiting on the news about an increase in range, so you're in good company.

Although they don't seem to use it recently, Brammo's slogan when I first started following them was "Saving the world, two wheels at a time."  Pretty close to your suggestions.

Anyway, welcome to the forum!
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SamM

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Re: Enertia 2.0 speculation...timing...
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2010, 05:00:59 AM »
I thought they already had a cool slogan.

Yes, just a little more range and I'm in. Just sitting here on a large stash of cash waiting to hear something. They better hurry, I'm also looking a new 2011 Husqvarna TE630 to replace my 2008 KLR650. I ride everyday so I'll still need a gas powered bike to go on trips and to get me around. The Enertia will just be a commuter.

SamM

Gavin

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Re: Enertia 2.0 speculation...timing...
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2010, 04:20:04 PM »
http://mtajudy.wordpress.com/2010/09/29/my-enertia-has-a-big-sister/

key points seem to be

Quote
with an estimate of 60 miles on a charge! The new motorcycle, speculated to be  named the Enertia Plus,  has better battery technology that make the range better.

and especially this:

Quote
Brammo has also expressed the fact that the owners of the original Enertia, like mine, will be able to take advantage of the new technology.

So it seems that it isn't getting the Empulse pack, but improved battery management...maybe a mild increase in size too.
Giving the better battery management to current owners is quite nice (like an os update for your computer). It alone probably won't give a full 20 miles extra in range, but could give a nice little bump.

I expect the next Enertia to keep the same form, maybe an inch or two wider at the body, and have a 4 or 5 kWh battery pack. It would be nice to get the full 6 or even 8 kWh from the Empulse, but that would take a much wider or deeper body.

Gavin

protomech

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Re: Enertia 2.0 speculation...timing...
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2010, 08:26:48 AM »
http://mtajudy.wordpress.com/2010/09/29/my-enertia-has-a-big-sister/

key points seem to be

Quote
with an estimate of 60 miles on a charge! The new motorcycle, speculated to be  named the Enertia Plus,  has better battery technology that make the range better.

and especially this:

Quote
Brammo has also expressed the fact that the owners of the original Enertia, like mine, will be able to take advantage of the new technology.

So it seems that it isn't getting the Empulse pack, but improved battery management...maybe a mild increase in size too.
Giving the better battery management to current owners is quite nice (like an os update for your computer). It alone probably won't give a full 20 miles extra in range, but could give a nice little bump.

Ahh, this was the article I saw :> I'm going to put on my tinfoil hat and guess that Brammo asked mtajudy to take it down, and gave her the goahead to repost yesterday with new info forthcoming. So another signal on the pile indicating new news is forthcoming..

Better battery management might lead to faster charge times and lower trickle charge current, and possibly to a more durable pack. I would be a little surprised to see a 10% increase in range just from better battery management.

Quote
I expect the next Enertia to keep the same form, maybe an inch or two wider at the body, and have a 4 or 5 kWh battery pack. It would be nice to get the full 6 or even 8 kWh from the Empulse, but that would take a much wider or deeper body.

It might not, *IF* they use the same cells they're planning to use in the Empulse. Those cells have substantially more claimed energy capacity per unit volume and unit mass than the valence packs in the Enertia - to the point where a 6.0 kwh pack might be lighter and take up similar space to the 3.1 kwh pack in the Enertia today. Packaging constraints might still force a redesign of the body, but I suspect the battery trays are designed to be fairly accommodating to a different pack.

Valence hasn't really announced any new battery packs, so if they continue to use Valence batteries they would need to redesign the trays.

http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=377.msg1880#msg1880


My predictions:

* 6.0 kwh upgrade pack for $4-5k after trading in the existing batteries, double the range, slight acceleration and top speed (with re-gearing) increase, ETA mid 2011
* brammo enertia 4.0 for $7k (25-50 mi), 6.0 (40-80 mi) for $9k, liquid-cooled motor, ETA mid 2011
* wifi and GPS options, upgrades for existing enertias
* possibly a slight decontent on parts - question for existing enertia owners, would you have been happy to pay say $500-1000 less for less premium parts? (forks, brakes)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 08:30:42 AM by protomech »
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Gavin

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Re: Enertia 2.0 speculation...timing...
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2010, 09:03:34 AM »
I like your predictions....I'll take a Enertia 6.0 for 8995 :)

edit: In fact I think it was a twitter post where I mentioned that the Enertia should get the Empulse 6.0 pack and Craig asked me what that should cost...I told him, well the Empulse is bigger and faster, with more expensive parts...so if the Empulse 6.0 is 9995 then the Enertia should be 8995. end edit.

Still not sure they will have multiple versions of the Enertia though, especially if they are using the Plus naming...Enertia 4 and Enertia 6 would be fine, but Enertia Plus 4 and Plus 6 is a bit much...and just plus wouldn't make sense with more than one model.

But I would grab an Enertia 6 tomorrow if available...

Gavin

edit...And the naming is tough here...the Empulse goes 6, 8, and 10 according to pack size and range. But the Enertia with a Empulse 6 pack would likely have a range of around 70 or so miles. It is smaller and lighter with thinner tires. I like how the Empulse is named by range....so I think an Enertia with a 6kWh pack would be named Enertia 70, and Enertia with a 4kWh pack would be Enertia 50, etc etc.

Still think they should go just one Enertia...the Enertia 75. Use the Empulse 6.0 pack and give the new 2011 Enertia a top speed of 75 and top range of 75...hence the Enertia 75 name.

Of course it could be nice to have a lower cost model...so maybe they do have 2 models...the current one (slightly modded from 3.1 to 4.0 kWh) for 7995 and the newer one at 8995....

gah, brain hurts...craig please put us out of our misery and break the news...

:)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 09:47:30 AM by Gavin »