Author Topic: Empulse139 Coolant Leak VLOGs  (Read 1168 times)

HadesOmega

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Empulse139 Coolant Leak VLOGs
« on: December 21, 2020, 10:12:29 PM »
I know I've posted bits and pieces of this coolant leak problem and the coolant temp sensor problem but I made some videos about my experience with this.  Hope it helps other empulse owners.

Part 1 - Introduction VLOG
This is where I've identified the problem and try to figure out what it could be



Part 2 - Clean up
In this VLOG I start cleaning up the area where the leak is happening so we can pinpoint where it's coming fromt



Part 3 - Thermistor Bypass and Condensation
In this VLOG I take the bike out for a ride and the motor began to overheat, the thermistor or coolant temp sensor was reporting coolant temp is way lower than it should be and not kicking on the waterpump so I have to find a way to trick the computer into thinking its always hot so the pump turns on.  Also I find out where the moisture is coming from.



Part 4 - 6 Month Follow Up
In this VLOG I give a 6 month follow up on the coolant leak problem.  The bike runs well but not 100%...
2016 Victory Empulse TT - #139

jazz999

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Re: Empulse139 Coolant Leak VLOGs
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2021, 12:49:09 AM »
Awesome thanks

Leander

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Re: Empulse139 Coolant Leak VLOGs
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2021, 06:48:21 AM »
Have you ever taken the lid off the motor itself?
it house an o-ring that degrades because of the coolant. it self.
yeah I know that's is a stupid oversight from Parker or Brammo.

KaFr

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Re: Empulse139 Coolant Leak VLOGs
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2021, 10:51:52 AM »
An interesting finding. It definitely fits into the whole story.

If it is an o-ring, is its shape and cross section round?
Is it not possible to find any picture, dimensions or serial number of the o-ring?

In my opinion, it is more of a flat seal, at least according to the picture of the engine with the front cover removed.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 11:02:30 AM by KaFr »
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HadesOmega

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Re: Empulse139 Coolant Leak VLOGs
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2021, 05:24:56 AM »
I haven't taken the cover off because I don't want to mess with the encoder.  I just run it without the plastic cover so the water doesn't condensate inside.
2016 Victory Empulse TT - #139

siai47

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Re: Empulse139 Coolant Leak VLOGs
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2021, 04:23:56 PM »
I've been following these threads because I have no idea what is happening under the plastic cover on the motor.  I have never directly sprayed water on the cover and very rarely ride in the rain.  When I removed the cover, it looked like brand new inside, totally clean and dry.  I did notice a couple of things that made me uncomfortable with the way the cover is sealed.  First, there is a very small diameter molded "O" ring that sits in a groove just under the plastic cover.  There is a molded square piece in the "O" ring that allows the wires from the temperature sensor and the resolver to pass through.  The temperature sensor wire also had a very short rubber piece stuffed in the hole going through the "O" ring.  It would be easy for water to pass through those two points as you can actually see light through the holes.  I would take the short rubber piece off the sensor wire and pot the entire square part of the "O" ring with silicone to seal up the area.  In addition, I am not too thrilled with the area were the motor power leads attach at the top of the motor.  This is another area where I would pot the whole area with silicone.  It would also be wise to consider drilling a very small drain hole at the lowest point on the plastic cover to allow anything that gets in there a way to get out.  Before I put the cover back on my Empulse, I sprayed the inside with a corrosion blocker product just in case.  The drain hole would allow you to see anything (water or coolant) was getting into the cover area before it did significant damage.

Finally the question remains as to what is getting inside the cover.  Is it plain water or coolant?  Or are some getting internal coolant leaks and others getting external water intrusion?  It takes very little water trapped in an enclosed area to really cause havoc.     

KaFr

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Re: Empulse139 Coolant Leak VLOGs
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2021, 05:43:43 PM »
I think drilling a small drain hole into the plastic cover is a good idea. Additional sealing of all communication connectors (lower battery module, sevcon controller, motor), which are directly exposed to splashing or sprayed water, is also very helpful to prevent water leakage inside.

In my opinion, only liquid from the engine cooling circuit penetrates into the space under the side plastic cover of the engine power cables. Although the rubber grommet of the temperature sensor cable and the motor rotation sensor is not perfectly watertight, it is very unlikely that more water will penetrate through it from the outside. Nevertheless, additional sealing of this rubber grommet may be useful.

As I understand it, the coolant penetrates through the rubber o-ring, which is located in the groove of the outer metal cover of the engine and is pressed by the cover screws onto the engine body. After the leaking, the liquid drains into the bottom of the sealed plastic lid, where it settles and does not flow out. Due to the consequent increase in engine temperature while driving, this liquid evaporates into the entire space and then corrodes all metal parts around it (rotation sensor cover, power cable contacts, etc.).

I don't know exactly what causes the coolant leaking. Either the material of the O-ring ages (hardens) after a certain time or its structure is chemically disturbed by the aged coolant. Another possibility may be a situation where, due to the extreme temperature of the coolant, its pressure also increases excessively and the o-ring allows a part of the coolant to pass through.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 05:48:38 PM by KaFr »
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HadesOmega

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Re: Empulse139 Coolant Leak VLOGs
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2021, 07:32:31 PM »
From what I've seen the water or moisture is coming from under the cover.  Like I mentioned in the videos after cleaning the cover and drying it I put it back on and then rode it a while and then took the cover off and I found water collecting where the orifice is.  So I can only guess that is where the water is coming from.  Then it would condensate or sweat the water inside the cover and it would get all over eventually corroding.  The only way i would have noticed it was wet was so much water had collected into the cover it pooled a the bottom of the cover and wept out a rust color.  I'm pretty sure it is a coolant because it's a little slimy/oily when you rub it on your fingers. 

Until my bike died I rode it without the cover and it was fine like that never had a problem with corrosion again.  It probably damaged the thermistor also all the water it eventually failed and reported the motor temp too cold so I disconnected it so the bike will think it's always too hot and kick the water pump on.  But yeah probably drilling a hole or holes would help a bit I thought about it but I didn't want to drill holes in the cover.  What I did do is remove the gasket and I don't snap the whole cover shut and every once in a while I would pull the cover out and rinse it and dry it then put it back on.  After doing that enough times I just said F'it I'll just run it without the cover. 
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KaFr

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Re: Empulse139 Coolant Leak VLOGs
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2021, 08:06:57 PM »
Today I removed the plastic engine cover and checked for coolant leaks.
Fortunately, everything looks like new under the cover.

Maybe it's because the engine has only driven 3000km (1900 miles).
The original engine was replaced under the warranty for the new one (even with the gearbox) after driving 6500 km (4100 miles).
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HadesOmega

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Re: Empulse139 Coolant Leak VLOGs
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2021, 03:16:01 PM »
Looks great  :)
2016 Victory Empulse TT - #139

nunux59

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Re: Empulse139 Coolant Leak VLOGs
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2021, 05:24:45 PM »
I just finished the replacement of the o-ring on the motor and also replaced the seal on the back of the motor (the flat one between the motor and the plastic one : made a custom one).

The O-ring I used is a 83X2,5 and I used EPDM (rubber for roofing) to make the other one. 

I will tell in a few weeks/month if the leak problem is gone for good :)