System Fault B40 Error Bike Does not Run

[HadesOmega]

Wow I'm surprised there are still so many out there.  I remember when I bought mine they had another one and it was leaking fluid from the bottom of the motor so I grabbed #139.  There is one in Morgan Hill the next town over from me on Facebook Marketplace. 

I marked all the logfiles I wanted to convert and hit "Generate One Large File" and opened the .csv file in MS excel.  That's pretty much all I did.  I wish I had a wider monitor.

[KaFr]

Invoke performance also has a problem with the B40 error on its Brammo Empulse R. The status light on one of the seven battery modules is solid green, unlike the others, which are blinking green.
He confirmed to me that this module is # 7 and is located at the bottom of the motorcycle at the very rear (closest to the rear wheel). This confirms our assumption about the numbering of battery modules on Brammo Empulse. At the top are (from back to front) modules # 1, # 2, # 3 and # 4, at the bottom are (from front to back) modules # 5, # 6 and # 7.

And there is no reason why the numbering of battery packs on Victory Empulse should be different. In the upper battery module there are almost certainly packages from # 1 to # 4, in the lower module there are packages from # 5 to # 7. We must take into account that Victory Empulse is the direct successor of Brammo Empulse, so we can certainly expect a great deal of similarity. So there is not a single reasonable reason to change the numbering of modules (packages).

The only thing that might be different is that in the lower Victory Empulse module, package # 5 is not in the front, but it is in the back, because the status lights and main contacts of both modules are in front. But even in that case, it would not contradict my theory of water penetrating the bottom module through the BMS connector. The infiltrated water can easily flow to the lowest point of the module and only start to evaporate there. So the BMS board can be corroded in any part of the bottom module.

Regarding my LOG file conversion: maybe it's because the converter is for Victory / Brammo Empulse and I was converting files from Brammo Enertia. So I'll try to download the data from Victory Empulse and analyze it at the next opportunity. I just firmly hope that the relative humidity inside both battery modules will be at an acceptable level. I haven't noticed error B9 yet.

[EV promise]

Hi, just to reply to KaFr post, I have run the three Enertia files I found on here with the most excellent log reader and they worked. There is not as much info in the logs. Faults, voltages and currents are logged, speed charge rates etc. No moisture meter in the cells. One file charged from 62-93% (1hr 20min), another was riding but had V58 fault ( bit fussy as 12v only dipped to 11.4v) . The files do not contain the vin no.

[KaFr]

Oh, that's a possible difference between Enertia Basic (Valence U1-12XP battery modules) compared to Enertia Plus (Brammo BPM 44/70 battery module). Humidity sensors are present in Brammo modules, just (unlike Victory Empulse) the humidity is measured in the whole module, not in each of the packages. So I see two relative humidity data in my Enertia Plus data. Fortunately, both humidity data are OK (they do not differ too much in value).

I also found a lot of errors and warnings in the data, but fortunately they all resolved on their own. But I'm still going to check the Sevcon connector (S65 and S85 errors) and the BMS connectors (B6 error) to see if these connectors are well sealed against water ingress. I will soon start a new topic about this in the "Brammo Enertia Servicing" section.

BTW: in 2015 my Enertia encountered a V78 error, which caused all files after this error to have the specified creation date of 2022-2027

My Victory Empulse TT also showed a V78 error due to the traction battery main connector disconnected for 2 months (shipping from Canada to the Czech Republic). Fortunately, after setting the European time, the V78 error disappeared. Nevertheless, I expect the date 2027 (instead of 2020) in the files from the USB drive.

[EV promise]

Hi, there is an image of the vcu board with a lithium coin cell soldered to the board. This know doubt powers the real time clock. They don't last for ever. I've changed a few in laptops. Desktop computers have them also but are easy to change.
Not sure I would open the vcu as we can't set the date anyhow!! I wouldn't know where to take it in UK.
 Waterproofing seems like an issue. Front fender extender required. A damp road had water spray debris under the lower yoke on my bike and everything below, restricting the radiator perhaps.  Not good, so I've made some changes.

[Leander]

It's an excel fuction.

in data got to text to colums. and then seperate by ; or ,

[KaFr]

Thank you very much Leander, now the data is much clearer. 

I just downloaded data from my Victory Empulse TT. I will publish details here later. Among other things, my Victory also experienced errors B8 and B40. Fortunately, it was before the motorcycle was sold to its first owner.

This error never occurred again. Therefore, I assume that the battery modules have already been repaired or replaced by the manufacturer.

Fortunately, the relative humidity of all battery packs is at an acceptable level. The difference between the maximum and minimum humidity is up to 10%.

[HadesOmega]

Yep it seems the Empulse greatest weakness is WATER

[HadesOmega]

Well guys I got a voice mail from Andrew at Polaris owners connections and they said they can't repair it because of the battery code.  He wanted to talk about the re acquisition process.  So it looks like they are going with the buyback option =(.  I'm waiting for him to call me back and let you guys know what's going to happen.  The first thing I'm going to ask is the bike can't be repaired at all?

[KaFr]

Interestingly, my first error "B8-B40-BATTERY TOO COLD" was not related at all to the increased humidity inside the module. One of the temperature sensors simply measured significantly lower temperature (-15 vs. 37 degrees), SoC (87 vs. 100%) and voltage imbalance (238 mV) of package 5. Also the temperature of the PCB (-15 degrees) of package 4 was significantly lower. Error B40 occurred with SoC of all other packages at 100%. This happened in May 2016.

I think this was because the battery was not charged at the dealer for a long time, which reduced the voltage of package 5 by a large value compared to other packages, and during charging to 100% SoC, the temperature sensors of packages 4 and 5 failed.
They tried to fix it in service mode for about two months, in the meantime a B55 error appeared and in the end package 5 discharged to 0% SoC (other packages had 55 SoC)! This happened in July 2016 and is the last data record from this year.

Other records are from March 2017, when everything was fine and since then no error B8-B40 has appeared.

I conclude from this that the lower battery module, which contains package 5, was replaced by a new one at the dealer. The motorcycle was then sold to the first owner in April 2017.

In retrospect, it may have been a faulty series of temperature sensors or PCB boards that were installed in new battery modules at the factory! The increased relative humidity could in some cases accelerate the failure process.

[KaFr]

Well guys I got a voice mail from Andrew at Polaris owners connections and they said they can't repair it because of the battery code.  He wanted to talk about the re acquisition process.  So it looks like they are going with the buyback option =(.  I'm waiting for him to call me back and let you guys know what's going to happen.  The first thing I'm going to ask is the bike can't be repaired at all?

That's bad news, but it was to be expected based on the experience of other Victory Empulse TT owners with a battery failure. 

Interestingly, the lower battery module is unavailable in the spare parts catalog (unlike the upper one).

https://www.victoryparts.net/oemparts/a/vic/5678f7e087a86611bc5d14de/batteries-and-charging-system-battery-module-mntg

They probably ran out of stock due to warranty repairs. I think they can only replace the module, but they can't fix the PCB or the sensor inside the module.

Personally, I would exchange Victory Empulse for another piece from the dealer and give her a second chance. However, it is possible that the same problem will arise over time. It would be good to get the data in advance from the flash drive, it could suggest something, as in my case.

But the final decision is up to you. Good luck. 

[HadesOmega]

Wow so I guess the probability of this happening again is strong.  I guess early on they were fixing bikes but now they are not.  I kinda feel this should have been a recall. 

Andrew did not call me back today, I tried to call Polaris and get a hold of him but they couldn't reach him.  I thought he was on a lunch break or something but will just have to wait.  Wish he would just email me. 

Yeah I'm just thinking what to do now if repairing the bike isn't any option.  I was looking at other electric bikes and I'm definitely not going to get the deal I got with this one.  It's a shame it ended like this I feel lost right now, there's no other bike on the market that is like this also.  I would like an Energica with their new 21kwh pack but it costs more than the Empulse TT at it's msrp price =/  We'll see how much Polaris will give me and if I can find an Empulse for that much I may stick with it.   

The only good thing that happened recently is I got my other electric bike my Sur Ron Light Bee running again.  Went dirtibiking yesterday and put the supermoto stuff back on.  Can't wait to burn some more electrons.  At least if the battery goes bad with this bike I can get another pack for less than $2000 instead of $7000 O_o'

[KaFr]

Could you please ask Andrew from Polaris the following information?
- What is the real cause of the failure of the temperature sensors in the battery module or inside the electric motor? Is it a manufacturing defect of the temperature sensor, PCB, increased humidity, leakage of coolant, or something else?
- Why can't these faults be fixed? Is it the unavailability of spare parts?
- What is the real cause of the electric motor coolant leak? Is it degradation of the seal under the lid of the electric motor due to coolant or something else?
- How many Victory Empulse TT have been affected by these battery or engine failures so far?
- Is it likely that it will eventually affect all manufactured motorcycles?
- Can this fault occur again if the battery module or motor has been replaced with a new one?

If I had to choose a different electric bike than the Victory / Brammo Empulse, I would probably buy a used Zero DS ZF14.4 with a charging tank.

[HadesOmega]

I realize I didn't post the last video because the forum closed and I forgot.  Here's a VLOG on the final verdict.  Farewell Empulse 139

To answer your questions KaFr:
- What is the real cause of the failure of the temperature sensors in the battery module or inside the electric motor? Is it a manufacturing defect of the temperature sensor, PCB, increased humidity, leakage of coolant, or something else?  All they told me was that one of the battery modules failed and needed to be replace, they didn't tell me how unfortunately. 

- Why can't these faults be fixed? Is it the unavailability of spare parts?
What Andrew told me is that there is no parts to fix it.  I forgot who I talked to but they said one of the battery packs is no longer available, I'm guessing it is the one that's bad. 

- What is the real cause of the electric motor coolant leak? Is it degradation of the seal under the lid of the electric motor due to coolant or something else?
I don't know the answer to this one, there is a leak somewhere and I don't want to take it apart to find out where.

- How many Victory Empulse TT have been affected by these battery or engine failures so far?
I don't know the answer, but from talking to them, it seems like my bike is NOT the first to have these problems.  I mentioned that it worked great and then poof it didn't work the next day and he said that seems to be the case for others.

- Is it likely that it will eventually affect all manufactured motorcycles?
I don't know the answer, but it seems likely, keep your bike away from water

- Can this fault occur again if the battery module or motor has been replaced with a new one?
I can't say 100% but my guess is yes and that's why I'd rather not fix it myself and kind of ruling out getting another Empulse.

[Brammofan]

So sad to hear this, Hades.  I have really enjoyed following along in your quest to get this fixed and appreciate what the the other members have contributed in trying to help you.  I'm happy for you that Polaris is going to buy it back, but yeah, sad to see another Empulse leave the streets.