Empulse pre-orders

[FreepZ]

The 2012 S can travel at 75 mph, though it can reach up to 88 mph for perhaps a minute or two to pass or whatnot.

I believe Brammo has stated that the Empulse can hold 100 mph for as long as the battery will hold it.

Can somebody tell me what happens when you push these bikes too hard? Do they overheat and then the computer takes over and slows the bike down, or do things start to smoke and then burn or melt? I don't think that ICE bikes have that kind of protection - I could red-line my old bike and the engine would just go on until it broke (not that I would do that to my poor bike).

[Gavin]

For the current Enertia...not sure about the water cooled Empulse, but likely something similar to protect the motor...

Gavin

[1lesscar]

I suspect many pre orders are lost because many buyers have loss interest. Brammo has been very wimpy with the details. They have not been helping to keep the dream alive.

I almost gave in to another 2011 ice bike. But lucky for Brammo, the seller pulled out of the deal at the last minute.

So, I am back in, until I find another offer I cannot walk away from.

Why won't Brammo tell us something about the Empulse?? It can only help sales.

[Richard230]

I agree, 1lesscar.  Before Zero came out with their production bike, they did a great job of stringing along their pre-order customers.  They came out every month or two and told their potential customers how great the new bike would be and that it would be arriving on their doorstep manana.  Of course, it never seemed to come when it was promised. I waited for over a year before I got pissed off and just gave up with their broken promises. I then went out and bought an Electric Motorsport GPR-S from a local dealer. At least I could actually see that bike and I got a chance to test ride it.  Too bad it was half-baked and just not ready for use by a non-technical customer who couldn't solve its problems by himself - as the dealer wasn't up to the task and the "factory" just wasn't interested in after-sales service.

Zero lost a lot of customers by stringing them along and making promises that they couldn't fulfill. However, they did manage to hang on to a lot of customers who might have gone out and bought a new IC bike and not waited for the Zero (at the time) vaporware.  Brammo, seems to be going in the exact opposite direction. They are really making no promises to their pre-order customers about exactly what the production bike will be like (other than the top speed and potential range) or when it will be put on sale (other than some time next year, which is what they said last year).

Personally, I think neither approach is the right one. Granted, it is bad customer relations to make specific promises and then not follow through. On the other hand it isn't all that smart to sign up a lot of interested customers who are willing to spend $10,000 to $14,000 in a tough economy and then not keeping them in the development loop with regular bits of information and encouragement to stick with their electric motorcycle dreams, while development is completed on the Empulse and production facilities are established.

 I have a feeling that a large number of Empulse pre-orders will have turned to smoke when the bike finally arrives and it is time to put cash where your typing fingers have been.

[Gavin]

I mostly agree in that I think some information now/soon would be better than waiting til spring...which is what has been suggested is the next "reveal" of the final Empulse.

At the same time, Brammo is planning at a long haul business plan. Losing some preorders is not as much of a concern when you are planning on sales growing through years 2,3,4 and beyond.

Still....Zero has shown their models for 2012. There is little reason not to reveal the 2012 Empulse and Plus at this point....unless Brammo knows of another "hidden" competitor. Keeping some aspects of the bike (looks, specs and such) hidden makes sense when your competition is working on their upcoming models (note Zero's 2012 front headlight), but once theirs are released, well there is less reason to be secretive.

And Brammo can steal some of Zeros thunder, and sales, by giving out info soon.

But again, these first year sales are not a huge number...still word of mouth and bikes on streets help increase future sales (I know because I have had tons of people asking about my test bike...and almost nobody has heared of Brammo before seeing "my" bike...though one guy yesterday in the Smith's grocery store parking lot asked me about the Empulse...which was cool...heck everyday people ask about the bike...the day before the Smith's guy I was eating a burger at a Carl's Jr and a guy sat down next to me and talked to me for 20 minutes while I ate...nice guy but was almost too much as I was carrying on a conversation while wolfing down fries and a western bacon cheese...).

On a semi side note: once you drive an electric motorcycle, you will LOVE the ride. You might still want an ICE as a second bike, but you will definitely want an EV too. Everybody should try to ride an Enertia or Zero...it will keep you yearning for an EV...just a fun fun ride.

Range is still an issue...can't wait for the Plus...and really can't wait for a few years down the road when the range is double or more again...then ICE bikes will have no real advantages at all...

Gavin

Ps....Brammo...please make the batteries of the 2012 models upgradable...I would love to buy some Brammo Power batteries in 2017 that take my Plus from 80 miles to 200 miles or so....

[1lesscar]

 I have a feeling that a large number of Empulse pre-orders will have turned to smoke when the bike finally arrives and it is time to put cash where your typing fingers have been.

exactly, cash that I saved up for the EMPULSE is being spent right now on an ICE. Because with no reassurance from Brammo, I am starting to think its all BS.

[00049 (AKA SopFu)]

Ps....Brammo...please make the batteries of the 2012 models upgradable...I would love to buy some Brammo Power batteries in 2017 that take my Plus from 80 miles to 200 miles or so....

+1

A little birdie said that Li Air may be commercially viable in 5-10 years.  How about an Empulse with a 1,000 mile range? 

[protomech]

1000 miles of range in something like an Empulse would be fantastic. "may be" "5-10 years" is basically in fantasy land though.

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/10/deliberate-incompetence-makes-for-better-lithium-air-batteries.ars

Let's suppose battery weight, volume, and price stay the same, total energy is 10x current.

Empulse 5.0-100: 100 kwh, 420 lbs, 1000 miles range $14000
Empulse 5.0-60: 60 kwh, 360 lbs, 600 miles range $10000
Empulse 5.0-20: 20 kwh, 300 lbs, 200 miles range $8000

I think I'd pick the 20 kwh bike to be honest.

[Gavin]

Yeah...the 20 would likely work for just about everybody.

I might get the 60 in the above example just so I would never never never need to recharge on a ride. I occasionally go over 200 miles in a day. But riding a motorcycle, well you really need to stop and walk around a bit every 150 miles anyways...so the 20 would likely be more than fine.

Gavin

[Gavin]

edit....in the above example I would gather that the 20 did 200 miles of city driving...so about 100 miles at highway speeds.

I would definitely go 60 then as when I do LONG rides, most of it is at highway speeds...the ability to go 300 miles without charging would be better for that.

of course this is all just mirror ball gazing at the moment.

gavin

[2Slow4u]

20kWh would be nice for range.

However, with todays battery tech. The hottest pack you can put into one of these bikes is A123 20Ah pouch cells and your only going to get ~12kWh before it starts becoming too heavy.

So really, we need a break through in chemistry and cost still. But I have very high hopes that the next generation of cell technology will be the tipping point against the ICE.

Also, AC Propulsions patents on charging will be ending soon. They came up with the idea to use the motor controller for double duty and run it backwards as a charger. Tesla more or less stole this tech through shady deals and call it their own now. Thats how the new model S has 20kW of charging power... They could charge faster, but 20kW is the limit that our grid can take now, and thats pushing it as is. A 240VAC 50A service is only good for 10kW of power.

[Shinysideup]

Since this thread seems to have meandered into us talking about all kinds of stuff, in the middle of winter, while waiting for Godot, I mean Empulse, I thought I'd share my experience of riding my first electric motorcycle today: a Zero S.

First impression: Sweet! As a builder of a serious electric bicycle, and as a 40 year rider of MC's, I was fairly sure I'd love a real motorcycle that was electric. This was very close, but no cigar.

The sweet part was the enormous amount of silence and smoothness enveloping the experience. It was a magical, flying carpet kind of feeling.

Acceleration from 20 to 65 felt linear as the torque just kept coming on. Nothing like a sport bike, but brisk enough to handle most traffic situations.

Handling was solid, both at speed and in turns. This is a motorcycle.

I like the belt drive vs. a chain. I like the lack of complexity, weight, and service of a transmission.

Negatives:

1) Acceleration of 0 to 20 has been retarded ( ) by their software after complaints of jerkiness in stop-n-go traffic. It wouldn't do for my need to get ahead of lanes of traffic at stoplights.

2) Brakes were OK, but nothing compared to those on my R1200R or TMax. I want Very Good brakes!

3) The suspension, admittedly totally untuned to me, was on the harsh side. I like pot-hole absorbing cushiness.

4) The seat was too narrow and too hard for my liking. While I'm not a fatazz, I'm definitely an old faht, you know those kind who actually like the Russell Day Long Saddle.

I declined to pay to get on the waiting list for the 2012 release, but I'm eager to try it when I can and compare it to a test ride on the Empulse when I can. Who knows? I'm leaning toward the Empulse for lots of reasons, but Zero's siren call is very much more audible.

Feed us some Empulse tidbits, Brammo. Get us through the dark days of winter. Keep me on your waiting list...

BTW, the salesperson at the dealer definitely harped on the fact that nobody knows when the Empulse will arrive, and they have a history of delays, and it would probably be a long, long time, and they've had several wait list defectors, etc. etc.

[Shinysideup]

Don't want to start a brand war: just sharing my experience and thoughts as I save toward my goal and sort out my dream.

Thought of one more negative which was odd: the bike didn't seem very responsive to brisk countersteering. I had to use a load of "body english" to make it change directions quickly. It almost felt like there was a huge gyroscope holding a straight line. Probably just a different geometry than I'm used to. My rides lately have consisted of a BMW R1200R, Yamaha TMax, Honda Reflex and they all are quite responsive to being flicked.

[Richard230]

Regarding the Zero's hard, thin, seat:  My local Zero dealer says that you can spend a lot of money for the accessory Corbin seat, or for $100, they have a fellow in their shop who will cut down and dish out the stock seat so that it is lower and more comfortable.

I wasn't too sure how reducing the foam on the stock seat could make it more comfortable, but they had a Zero S model  on the floor with this modification by their shop and I gave it a try. I was surprised to see that it was a noticeable improvement. Not only were your feet placed flatter on the ground, but it felt more comfortable, as the dishing effect spread the load out on your rear so that you didn't feel so much like sitting on a vinyl covered fence rail.

I give the shop credit for coming up with a reasonably priced solution to the hard and thin stock seat.  Putting it on their demonstrator will help to sell the bike, as frankly, the Zero S is not all that comfortable for a street motorcycle.

[Shinysideup]

... frankly, the Zero S is not all that comfortable for a street motorcycle.

Thanks for that summary comment which solidified my impression.

While never feeling like I had to fight with it to do what I want, there's something about its very lightness that's a little unsettling, a less planted feeling.  

It feels it would me more at home off road. It's as if they took the cross version and put some different fenders and tires on it, along with the S designation.

IIRC, the designer was a mountain bike enthusiast, which is sort of what this feels like, albeit a quite magical bike!