2012 Zeros to be at EICMA

[protomech]

I'm curious whether the $2k difference between the 6kwh and 9kwh bikes represents the marginal cost of the larger pack, or if Zero is making a larger margin on the smaller bike.

I'm also highly suspicious of the 116 mile claim for the 9 kwh model. Zero claims a "maximum range" of 58 miles for the 4.4 kwh 2011 Zero S -- which was determined by running the bike on a 25 mph dyno (no air resistance?) until the bike ran out of charge. It is disingenuous to report this result as a specification; no consumer will ever ride the bike at a constant 25 miles with a 25 mph tailwind for 58 miles. Coincidence: 2 * 4.4 kwh is nearly 9 kwh; 2 * 58 miles = 116 miles.

Zero produced the best range guidance I've seen from any EV manufacturer, Nissan and Chevy included. I'd like to see them banish range claims based upon dyno testing in their entirety.

[Gavin]

That range guidance is very nice...

As for

@Gavin

Is emotofreak a Zero employee? Does he have to be a Zero employee to "bash Brammo"?

Nah, anybody can bash...I may have been out of turn, but emotofreak only posted one other time and it was to post personal videos from zeromotorservice...I assumed he worked for Zero...he could just be a friend of Zero...

Gavin

[Gavin]

On a related note, I really do hope that this Polaris deal doesn't kill Zero. I am a big fan of both competition and choices...but having the Polaris dealerships and the Polaris money and Flextronic manufacturing, well it is going to be hard for others to compete with Brammo (when they get their product out in the spring)...

Brammo should clean up in Europe...with production in Hungary and the BrammoParx, well Brammo is pretty well set with a commuter bike (Enertia and Plus), with off-road Brammo bikes hogging all the Parx riding and the Enertia LE going to Police, well even without the Empulse Brammo will be far and away number one in Europe...maybe Asia. add the Empulse and...well I like Brammo but even I don't want them to totally control the market.

Of course that hasn't happened yet, but it could...Polaris liked something about Brammo more than Zero and other electric start ups...as mentioned earlier, perhaps it is that Brammo worked the tranny issues and the geard bikes are really that good...who knows...

As said over and over...time will tell...but tomorrow should be fun.

Gavin

[EmpulseRider]

I found out via Autoblog Green that the production version of the Brammo Empulse will be kept "under wraps" until its launch:

"Sorry but the final production Empulse is under wraps until the launch in spring of next year......."

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/10/30/volta-motorbikes-bcn-city-to-debut-at-milan-motorcycle-show/

A little bummed BUT, it will be cool to see what every manufacturer has to offer!

BTW, the show starts in 4 hours. (9am local time).

[EmpulseRider]

The new 2012 Zero S is the supposed "Empulse Killer" ummm, its a nice bike and all but not in any way an Empulse Killer. Looks like they changed the body work a bit and added a a headlight similar to the one on the prototype Empulse. Range is nice too, but overall... underwhelming.

[Gavin]

BrammoParx info in less than an hour...

The S is no Empulse...a good bike but no sports bike.

No wonder they claim they can deliver by January, they already make the S...change a few minor details and there you go...

Gavin

[protomech]

Wow. Check out the back sprocket. AC motor must be much higher RPM .. should be some nice wheel torque numbers. 132T / 28T vs the 2011 98T / 28T.

[smg id=294 width=500]

New battery packs (6 kwh and 9 kwh). New AC motor, regen braking (not clear how this is controlled). Top speed is higher (2011 67 mph, 2012 88 mph max, 75 mph sustained). Onboard charger is the same, so a 95% charge takes 8 hours. Can chain up to 4 chargers for a 2 hour charge.

Dimensions are roughly the same. Suspension / brakes appear unchanged. Curb weight remains unchanged for the 6 kwh bike (+33% capacity for the same weight!) at 297 lbs, 9 kwh bike is 341 lbs.

Also noteworthy: the Zero S will have an optional pillion seat. It seems to have lost the J1772 port, however.

Prices are $11500 and $14000, respectively.

[Gavin]

mmm, pillon seat is good...

I miss the spoked wheels...in fact those 2011 Zero wheels are the one thing I was really jealous off...I want Brammo to put those wheels on the 2012 Plus....

Gavin

[protomech]

I agree. The 2012 wheels are.. not that good. The 2011 wheels are sexy. Bolt patterns look like you could swap out the wheels..

Also, it looks like all of Zero's models saw an update.

* DS - new AC motor, 420 amp controller, 6 kwh and 9 kwh options. 132T / 25T sprockets. Top speed of 80 mph. The 6.0 kwh model weighs the same 297 lbs as the 2011, the 9.0 kwh model weighs 341 lbs.
* XU - new AC motor, 220 amp controller. 2.0 kwh pack is now 3.0 kwh. 132T / 25T sprockets.
* X - 2.0 kwh pack is now 3.0 kwh. 12 lb increase to 213 lbs.
* MX - 2.0 kwh pack is now 3.0 kwh. 4 lb increase to 200 lbs.

In 2011 both the X and MX models were available in dirt or street-legal forms. The 2012 MX is offroad-only, the 2012 X is street-legal.

Zero rates the new packs for 2700-3000 cycles to 80% capacity, up from about 1300 cycles in 2011. Combined with the higher density packs, 80% capacity range increases substantially.

[Richard230]

I received this email from Zero this morning. Those performance claims seem a little "vaporish" to me, considering the performance of their current models. Getting that performance would seem to require a complete redesign, all new equipment and batteries, setting up suppliers, reconfiguring the factory, retraining the workers, etc, etc. I don't know how they can do it within the next few months. And check out that battery life claim! When did they have time to perform the testing necessary to make that claim?     I am not quite sure what to think. 

Greetings from Zero Motorcycles,

We are proud to introduce our game changing 2012 electric motorcycle line. Without question, this is the largest step anyone has ever taken in production electric motorcycle technology.
Here are just a few of the incredible new features:

    You can now ride up to 114 miles on a charge
    Revolutionary new battery technology will allow you to travel up to 308,000 miles on the original power pack
    All the street models let you ride without ever worrying about any routine powertrain maintenance (imagine that)
    Regenerative braking to maximize your range
    Top speeds of up to 88 mph and more power for each model
    Sophisticated and striking new design elements that give the lineup a new look that will draw eyes and conversations where ever you go

With the high level of anticipated demand for our 2012 model line, we want to give you a head start in placing your pre-order with a dealer near you. To see exciting new videos, photos, read about the new features and to reserve a 2012 model, please visit our website at the link below:
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

The entire lineup will be hitting dealerships this February. However, if you'd like to make this an early holiday present by placing a pre-order, we can send you a little something to unwrap.

Enjoy the Ride,
Your Friends at Zero

[Brammofan]

Can chain up to 4 chargers for a 2 hour charge.

Yeah... sorry but that just seems crazy. 4 chargers, but depending on the electrical service in your house, it's pretty likely you'd have to have these plugged into different circuits.  Or hire an electrician to install a plug with the required amperage. Each charger costs $595... so $2,400 + an electrician.  Yeah, I may be an "unsubstantiated fanboy" but this just seems like a sloppy way of trying to appease the recharge-time-critics.  Wonder what that's going to do to the battery life. 

[Gavin]

The entire lineup will be hitting dealerships this February. However, if you'd like to make this an early holiday present by placing a pre-order, we can send you a little something to unwrap.

I do think this part is smart...A little Christmas/Holiday reminder to deposit holders is a good idea...keeps people interested and reminded and sets up press mentions...

Feb? Brammo mentions spring...Brammo should see if they can meet that Feb date also...at the very least they should do the Empulse "reveal" by then...even if sales aren't till March or April....

Gavin


as for the battery testing...well a lot can be somewhat determined by "stress" testing the battery...high heat and such to mimic the passage of time...still...

Revolutionary new battery technology will allow you to travel up to 308,000 miles on the original power pack

notice they don't say what the percentage of original range and functionality of the battery is at the end of that "up to" number...it just says that the battery will last for 308,000 miles...of course you might only go 14 feet after 8 hours of charging

[Richard230]

Brammo needs to counter Zero with an email to pre-order customers about their plans for new model production in 2012.

More photos and comments about the new Zero models here:

http://www.clutchandchrome.com/news/news/zero-motorcycles-brings-more-miles-to-new-models

That chassis sure doesn't look big enough to enclose a battery with twice the capacity of their current version. I would really like to know more about the battery technology and how they got the additional energy density and much longer estimated life. It seems like too big a jump to me.   

[Gavin]

eh, the Enertia doubled up capacity with the same body...that is the wonder of battery advancement...and why I think the Enertia and similar models will be 200 miles of range in just a few years....

Gavin

[Brammofan]

Am I bashing on Brammo? Yeah a bit, but this unsubstantiated fanboyism is getting old. Brammo can not be considered competition in any sense of the word untill they actually start delivering products on which they can be judged.

Brammo lost all credibility with me over the IET debacle. They claim it offers huge performance benefits, then got spanked at mini-moto by single-speed Zero's. Then they used it a a lame excuse as to why the bikes were delayed again. I bet, in the end, they don't even ship it. It has been almost 2 years since Brammo 1st announced the Empulse and you still can't ride one.

Okay, G., go ahead and bash on Brammo.  It's to be expected from an "R&D Supervisor" at Zero Motorcycles.  But turnabout is fair play, right?  That means some Brammo guy should go to the Zero Owners Forum and start flinging.  Except there isn't such a forum.  And that's not the Brammo way.

I think that we're at the time of development in this industry that a rising tide lifts all boats.  I wish Zero had the kind of following that Brammo has and that some enterprising fans started their own forum, focused on Zeros.  And that you and other Zero engineers participated in the forum and answered questions posed by the members about their bikes  -- how to take care of them, what kind of modifications they'd recommend, maybe even a sneak peak or exclusive on some product news. But you guys haven't fostered that kind of following (that I'm aware of, anyway) and so owners and aspiring owners are left to their own devices, trying to find information independent from the Zero website.  This information is scattered among various other forums ( elmoto.net, electricmotorcycleforum.com , endless sphere, etc) and a couple blogs (again, that I am aware of) started by owners.  Excellent example of that: http://zerods.blogspot.com/

G - you're welcome to post here and I think both companies and the owners of the bikes can benefit from your opinions and technical expertise.  I'm hopeful that you can share that in a manner that doesn't alienate the members of this forum or visitors to the forum who are looking for information.

I agree with you that Brammo needs to start delivering products, specifically the Empulse and the Enertia Plus.  But Zero and Brammo have two different ways of surviving in this industry.  It's too early to tell which, if any, of the strategies will be successful.