Author Topic: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA  (Read 11205 times)

Gavin

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Re: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2011, 11:48:24 AM »
mmmm, Brian, Adrian....can anodized aluminum rims and spoked wheels be an option? I want blue anodized aluminum rims and spoked wheels on my black Plus...and happy to pay extra for it...

Gavin

protomech

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Re: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2011, 01:03:17 PM »
mmm, pillon seat is good...

Actually, it looks like the pillion option uses the standard seat, but adds rear pegs and additional bracing.

http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/press-2012/small/s/location/2012_zero-s_action-03_1680x1200_press.jpg

Can chain up to 4 chargers for a 2 hour charge.

Yeah... sorry but that just seems crazy. 4 chargers, but depending on the electrical service in your house, it's pretty likely you'd have to have these plugged into different circuits.  Or hire an electrician to install a plug with the required amperage. Each charger costs $595... so $2,400 + an electrician.  Yeah, I may be an "unsubstantiated fanboy" but this just seems like a sloppy way of trying to appease the recharge-time-critics.  Wonder what that's going to do to the battery life.

Good question re: battery life. 0.5C isn't terribly quick, so hopefully it should have little impact.

You absolutely would need separate circuits for each charger. Stringing four chargers together is kind of a hack, but it's better than no option at all. You have one charger on the bike itself, so the upgrade cost for the 3 extra chargers is $1800 + whatever cost to have 4 separate circuits run in close proximity. Costs about the same as other quick charge options (Leaf, Volt, Focus EV).

Also, the J1772 option from the 2011 bikes is gone. I wonder if they're working on a true AC level 2 charger integrated into the bike.

Quote
Revolutionary new battery technology will allow you to travel up to 308,000 miles on the original power pack

notice they don't say what the percentage of original range and functionality of the battery is at the end of that "up to" number...it just says that the battery will last for 308,000 miles...of course you might only go 14 feet after 8 hours of charging :)

Zero lists in the specs that it's 300k miles to 80% capacity. Realistically, the battery will degrade over time and you will probably replace the battery around year 7-10 well before you hit 300k miles.

Brammo needs to counter Zero with an email to pre-order customers about their plans for new model production in 2012.

...

That chassis sure doesn't look big enough to enclose a battery with twice the capacity of their current version. I would really like to know more about the battery technology and how they got the additional energy density and much longer estimated life. It seems like too big a jump to me.   ???

I agree on both points. I'm curious whether the bike is wider.

Let's hope Zero gets these bikes out in February as promised. Put some heat on Brammo : )
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Gavin

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Re: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2011, 01:16:14 PM »


nice....

still miss last years tires...

but that is a nice ride for two...

Gavin

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Re: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2011, 02:27:26 PM »
Man that headlight on the S just bugs me... to the naked eye, its the exact same one shown on the Empulse prototype. Its not bad looking on either bike but I hope Brammo took the Yamaha design a little further on the production version.

Anyway, I dont think Brammo will lose many pre-orders to this "Empulse Killer" at all, BUT it would indeed be nice if we got a solid update on availability of the Plus and the Empulse... I have some money burning a hole in my pocket!

Gavin

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Re: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2011, 02:54:37 PM »
Yeah, not an Empulse killer...barely an Empulse competitor (style wise)...

It could and might steal some Enertia Plus orders though...faster, 2 seater...though you pay 2k more...

Gavin

protomech

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Re: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2011, 03:29:03 PM »
"Empulse Killer" is hyperbole. And that's fine, it's a blog.

Zero S does have some big advantages.

* simplicity of operation: direct drive
* regen braking: big win for low-speed operation
* much lower weight: 297/341 lbs for 6.0/9.0 kwh S, vs 360/420 lbs for 6.0/10.0 kwh Empulse
* maintenance: direct drive, belt drive, air-cooling
* belt drive: lower noise
* most importantly: finalized production version, near-term ship date

But then again, Empulse has:

* serious sexy
* serious performance: Zero hasn't announced motor specs, but likely 20-40% less power than Empulse
* sport riding: IET + liquid cooling = significantly higher sustained top speeds (if you want to discharge your pack in 20 minutes)
* cheaper announced price

But really.. that italicized point is key. Zero is shipping soon.
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Re: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2011, 03:34:32 PM »
Quote
Zero is shipping soon.

will be nice....soon has a way of slipping though...and shipping a few in Feb/March isn't a huge hit if Brammo is shipping hundreds in March/April...

Still, Yes, Brammo hurry up...though I don't think Brammo sees losing a month, or even 2,3,4 months to Zero is a huge issue...Brammo is thinking more Worldwide...

Gavin

Brammofan

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Re: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2011, 03:54:51 PM »
We've got some smart cookies on this forum.  Proto - your analysis is spot on about the finalized production.

I think regen braking is still an unknown.  It might give someone a bit of psychological comfort, but the reports I've seen show that it adds perhaps 7-10 % in ideal situations with four wheels, and more likely, 2-4%.  Who knows what it will do when it's only on one wheel of the two on a motorcycle. 

And yes, a few dozen bikes in February may pale in comparison to what (hopefully) is coming later in 2012 worldwide for Brammo.
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Gavin

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Re: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2011, 04:04:01 PM »
Quote
We've got some smart cookies on this forum.  Proto - your analysis is spot on about the finalized production.

I agree...Proto's posts are uniformily well thought out and full of insight and facts....

I hate him :)  Kidding...I just wish my posts were half way as intelligent...sigh...

Gavin

Gavin

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Re: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2011, 04:23:20 PM »
Yeah, not an Empulse killer...barely an Empulse competitor (style wise)...

It could and might steal some Enertia Plus orders though...faster, 2 seater...though you pay 2k more...

Gavin

edit...2,500 more for the S ZF6 vs the Plus...If the S was 1k over the Plus I might get one...I do like the 2 seat option (though I almost never ride two-up) and higher speed...

But paying over 10k for a commuter bike is a tough sell...


Zero site info:

Initial Deposit: $1,000
Starting at: $11,495.00
Model
S ZF6
S ZF9 ( +$2,500.00)

Gavin

Still hope they do well and do get their bikes out in Feb...

Gavin

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Re: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2011, 05:55:40 PM »
great comment found on interwebs:

@motoelettriche moto elettriche
@brammofan @BrammoSays @BrammoCraig new Empulse will have engine-gearbox produced by SMRE. about 80 hp.Italian article: http://www.smre.it/photo/file_rassegna18.pdf
~
We are talking horse power numbers of between early ’90s Honda CBR600s and VFR750Fs, with the weight of the 600s, and 3 to 4 times the torque.  Mated to a six speed transmission those Hondas were good for 140mph.  But they did have full fairings.  If these numbers are right, then you are looking at a bike that isn’t trying to compete with SV650s, you are looking at a bike that’s going to go eat them for lunch.  I do not see the Zero S competing with the Empulse in performance.  But I don’t think it is trying to. The S is still a supermoto bike and a different style of riding.  I feel it is a distinct and separate bike model that speaks to Zero’s dirtbike core where the Brammo is more focused on the open minded ricky racers of the world.  It’s not Brammo vs Zero folks.  It’s Brammo and Zero vs the ICE bikes and traditional thinking.



Great comment found here...

http://ttxgpmatters.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/dear-zero-id-like-to-get-some-sleep-and-related-brammo-tid-bit/


Gavin

emotofreak

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Re: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2011, 06:36:05 PM »
I received this email from Zero this morning. Those performance claims seem a little "vaporish" to me, considering the performance of their current models. Getting that performance would seem to require a complete redesign, all new equipment and batteries, setting up suppliers, reconfiguring the factory, retraining the workers, etc, etc. I don't know how they can do it within the next few months. And check out that battery life claim! When did they have time to perform the testing necessary to make that claim?   :o  I am not quite sure what to think.  ???

Regarding the "vaporish" statement. The 114 mile range claim is based off the MIC's City Range Test (EPA UDDS). Which is the same test on which the 2011 S achieved 43 miles. So, if you agree the 2011 S could achieve it's MIC City Range, I see no reason to doubt the 114 mile claim of the new bike.

Also, as far as I know, Zero is the ONLY electric motorcycle company, in all of history, to have ACTUALLY performed, and reported, the MIC's City (UDDS), and Highway (70mph and 55mph) range numbers.

Once again, Brammo has no data with which to compare...

emotofreak

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Re: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2011, 06:48:27 PM »
You realize it is incredibly un-cool to out me like that? Extremely immature and un-professional. If you would you prefer I not participate in your forum, just say so. I cannot continue to contribute to your forum if you cannot respect my privacy.

Are you just going to out anyone with whom you are dis-pleased? Why do you have to go and make it personal? Am I not allowed a personal opinion? Was my conduct out-of-line? Would you have done the same to anyone who wasn't working in the industry? I doubt it.

The only fair thing to do now is reveal whom all your users are and provide their personal info, as you did to me. Would they all be fine with that?

It is not too late to re-tract your earlier post, before too many see it.

Am I bashing on Brammo? Yeah a bit, but this unsubstantiated fanboyism is getting old. Brammo can not be considered competition in any sense of the word untill they actually start delivering products on which they can be judged.

Brammo lost all credibility with me over the IET debacle. They claim it offers huge performance benefits, then got spanked at mini-moto by single-speed Zero's. Then they used it a a lame excuse as to why the bikes were delayed again. I bet, in the end, they don't even ship it. It has been almost 2 years since Brammo 1st announced the Empulse and you still can't ride one.

Okay, Gabriel, go ahead and bash on Brammo.  It's to be expected from an "R&D Supervisor" at Zero Motorcycles.  But turnabout is fair play, right?  That means some Brammo guy should go to the Zero Owners Forum and start flinging.  Except there isn't such a forum.  And that's not the Brammo way.

I think that we're at the time of development in this industry that a rising tide lifts all boats.  I wish Zero had the kind of following that Brammo has and that some enterprising fans started their own forum, focused on Zeros.  And that you and other Zero engineers participated in the forum and answered questions posed by the members about their bikes  -- how to take care of them, what kind of modifications they'd recommend, maybe even a sneak peak or exclusive on some product news. But you guys haven't fostered that kind of following (that I'm aware of, anyway) and so owners and aspiring owners are left to their own devices, trying to find information independent from the Zero website.  This information is scattered among various other forums ( elmoto.net, electricmotorcycleforum.com , endless sphere, etc) and a couple blogs (again, that I am aware of) started by owners.  Excellent example of that: http://zerods.blogspot.com/

Gabriel - you're welcome to post here and I think both companies and the owners of the bikes can benefit from your opinions and technical expertise.  I'm hopeful that you can share that in a manner that doesn't alienate the members of this forum or visitors to the forum who are looking for information.

I agree with you that Brammo needs to start delivering products, specifically the Empulse and the Enertia Plus.  But Zero and Brammo have two different ways of surviving in this industry.  It's too early to tell which, if any, of the strategies will be successful.  

emotofreak

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Re: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2011, 06:53:49 PM »
Still haven't heard what motor and controller Brammo is going to use in the Empulse. It will almost certainly NOT be what they are running in the RR. Without that data it is impossible to make performance judgments.

"Empulse Killer" is hyperbole. And that's fine, it's a blog.

Zero S does have some big advantages.

* simplicity of operation: direct drive
* regen braking: big win for low-speed operation
* much lower weight: 297/341 lbs for 6.0/9.0 kwh S, vs 360/420 lbs for 6.0/10.0 kwh Empulse
* maintenance: direct drive, belt drive, air-cooling
* belt drive: lower noise
* most importantly: finalized production version, near-term ship date

But then again, Empulse has:

* serious sexy
* serious performance: Zero hasn't announced motor specs, but likely 20-40% less power than Empulse
* sport riding: IET + liquid cooling = significantly higher sustained top speeds (if you want to discharge your pack in 20 minutes)
* cheaper announced price

But really.. that italicized point is key. Zero is shipping soon.

Gavin

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Re: 2012 Zeros to be at EICMA
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2011, 07:16:08 PM »
Quote
Would you have done the same to anyone who wasn't working in the industry?

This confuses me.

But you are in the industry...and a DIRECT competitor to Brammo...

You are allow any opinions you want, but the non-industry, non-insiders have a right to know if your comments are "influenced"...and then go from there...

Gavin McCullough
Albuquerque, NM 
Hospital Employee and not affiliated to any motorcycle company past or present...