2012 Zeros to be at EICMA

[EmpulseRider]

Still haven't heard what motor and controller Brammo is going to use in the Empulse. It will almost certainly NOT be what they are running in the RR. Without that data it is impossible to make performance judgments.

"Empulse Killer" is hyperbole. And that's fine, it's a blog.

Zero S does have some big advantages.

* simplicity of operation: direct drive
* regen braking: big win for low-speed operation
* much lower weight: 297/341 lbs for 6.0/9.0 kwh S, vs 360/420 lbs for 6.0/10.0 kwh Empulse
* maintenance: direct drive, belt drive, air-cooling
* belt drive: lower noise
* most importantly: finalized production version, near-term ship date

But then again, Empulse has:

* serious sexy
* serious performance: Zero hasn't announced motor specs, but likely 20-40% less power than Empulse
* sport riding: IET + liquid cooling = significantly higher sustained top speeds (if you want to discharge your pack in 20 minutes)
* cheaper announced price

But really.. that italicized point is key. Zero is shipping soon.

Your right, we can only speculate... hopefully Brammo will hook us up with the 411 on the Empulse soon! BTW I think we can all agree that Zero products kick ass but this is a Brammo Forum soooo we may be a little biased towards the Brammo products.

[protomech]

You realize it is incredibly un-cool to out me like that? Extremely immature and un-professional. If you would you prefer I not participate in your forum, just say so. I cannot continue to contribute to your forum if you cannot respect my privacy.

Are you just going to out anyone with whom you are dis-pleased? Why do you have to go and make it personal? Am I not allowed a personal opinion? Was my conduct out-of-line? Would you have done the same to anyone who wasn't working in the industry? I doubt it.

Sure, everyone is allowed to have their personal opinions, independent of their coworker. It's just wise though to err on the side of disclosure when the opportunity exists for hidden bias.

Sort of like a political staffer editing wikipedia to publish positive material re: his boss or negative material re: an opponent. He may well be in a position to know the truth of the matter. But the onus is on him to disclose that affiliation up front, instead of allowing it to be disclosed for him.

The only fair thing to do now is reveal whom all your users are and provide their personal info, as you did to me. Would they all be fine with that?

I'm Michael Beatty. I work for a defense contractor that doesn't happen to be competing with Brammo.

I agree that it's not cool to target someone for outing, but if you publish your email address in your profile as firstinitial.lastname@santacruzhostingcompany.com .. well, it's not as if you're hiding your identity.

Anyhow. This isn't really productive or on-topic.

You're correct that we don't know what motor is to be used in the Empulse, aside from a 40kW peak spec rating that's been on the Empulse page since forever. The concept used a Perm 150W, but it's been stated that the production bike will use another motor.

Also noone but maybe you knows what motor the 2012 Zero S uses .. can make a guess at maybe 10-15 hp sustained, if the 75 mph top speed is drag/power limited. Peak is generally 2x, so call it 30 hp or 20 kw. It's a good a guess as we'll have until Zero discloses more information or the bikes land in independent tester hands.

[Brammofan]

Okay emotofreak, I edited that post - removed the link to your profile on linkedin.com, removed all but the first letter of your name, but I left your job title and affiliation.  

Here's the deal - when you signed up for the forum, you made choices.  Your choices included using an email that included your name and which, when googled, led directly to that result on linkedin.  You also made a choice (might not have seem apparent at the time) to allow your email address to be viewable by anyone.

Even a guest (not logged in) to the forum can see your email address on your profile.  If anonymity is important to you, you can begin by making that email address private.  If I saw that you had done that I would probably not have "outed" you.  As it stands, you basically outed yourself.  PM me if this will end up getting you into trouble with your bosses and we'll see about scrubbing it all.  (Note: since you quoted me in your reply, you'll need to go back and edit that yourself).

Anyway, my info is pretty public - check out the about me page on my blog - and many of the other guys and gals here choose to be open about their info as well.  Whatever.  So I'm "incredibly un-cool."  Tell me something I don't hear from kids and my wife every f'ing day.  And from my classmates in college and high school and elementary school.  Pretty sure after the doc slapped my ass on day one, he took a good look and said, "It's a boy ... an un-cool boy."

Stick around or not, it's your choice. You can even re-join and be all anonymous if you want.  But whether you're going to the Brammo Owners forum and talking trash, or going to the Harley Owners Group forum and talking trash, prepare to deal with loyal owners and their natural reactions.

Meanwhile, peace.

[protomech]

I calculate regen is worth about 4% extra range on my commute (35-55 mph, average speed in motion 43 mph, I calculate approx 1.4 kwh for 12.2 miles).

If I could restrict my commute to 35 mph, I could knock total commute usage down to about 1.1 kwh, but regen would fall to about 3% of that total. Maybe my calculations are off.

However, here's my experience with regen braking over the last two years (MY 2000 Insight). For maximum efficiency, you don't want to use any brakes, you want to coast to or nearly to a stop. In real world traffic you don't have that luxury of a half mile to stop from 45 mph - so regen braking lets you keep reasonable gaps in traffic while still driving fairly efficiently.

In stop-and-go urban traffic, the efficiency gains from regen braking are probably between the 3-4% range and whatever portion of the 30% increase in range from 2011 to 2012 S is attributable to regen braking.

[emotofreak]

Would you have done the same to anyone who wasn't working in the industry?

This confuses me.

But you are in the industry...and a DIRECT competitor to Brammo...

You are allow any opinions you want, but the non-industry, non-insiders have a right to know if your comments are "influenced"...and then go from there...

Gavin McCullough
Albuquerque, NM  
Hospital Employee and not affiliated to any motorcycle company past or present...

"You are allow any opinions you want, but the non-industry, non-insiders have a right to know if your comments are "influenced"...and then go from there..."

Who has the right? From where is it derived? You are saying that if I don't expend every effort to remain anonymous, I deserve to be "outed"?

[emotofreak]

Thank you Brammofan. I wasn't aware my email was public, that is changed. I don't think we need to erase anything else. I don't think I said anything that wasn't factual or clearly stated as my opinion. I don't think anything I said was biased by my occupation. I am just tired of the rampant speculation and min-information and want to see what Brammo is going to deliver.

I just felt targeted. Let's move on...

Thanks for being civil. I will endeavor to be more so.

Okay emotofreak, I edited that post - removed the link to your profile on linkedin.com, removed all but the first letter of your name, but I left your job title and affiliation.  

Here's the deal - when you signed up for the forum, you made choices.  Your choices included using an email that included your name and which, when googled, led directly to that result on linkedin.  You also made a choice (might not have seem apparent at the time) to allow your email address to be viewable by anyone.

Even a guest (not logged in) to the forum can see your email address on your profile.  If anonymity is important to you, you can begin by making that email address private.  If I saw that you had done that I would probably not have "outed" you.  As it stands, you basically outed yourself.  PM me if this will end up getting you into trouble with your bosses and we'll see about scrubbing it all.  (Note: since you quoted me in your reply, you'll need to go back and edit that yourself).

Anyway, my info is pretty public - check out the about me page on my blog - and many of the other guys and gals here choose to be open about their info as well.  Whatever.  So I'm "incredibly un-cool."  Tell me something I don't hear from kids and my wife every f'ing day.  And from my classmates in college and high school and elementary school.  Pretty sure after the doc slapped my ass on day one, he took a good look and said, "It's a boy ... an un-cool boy."

Stick around or not, it's your choice. You can even re-join and be all anonymous if you want.  But whether you're going to the Brammo Owners forum and talking trash, or going to the Harley Owners Group forum and talking trash, prepare to deal with loyal owners and their natural reactions.

Meanwhile, peace.

[FreepZ]

Regardless of if Brammo or Zero is the better bike (perhaps the real question is "better for whom?"), the 2012 Zero lineup looks great! I was never a fan of dirt bikes, which is what pushed me away from Zero in  the first place, so I'm pretty excited about the Zero S, which looks a lot more like a street bike (to me) than a dirt bike.

Their promotional video (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/index.php?video) does a great job of showing electric bikes to be a lot of fun, and I think that the more people that watch it, the better for all electric vehicles.

If I have the opportunity to buy this bike before Brammo gives me a definite date for getting an Empulse, there's a possibility that I would give up waiting and get a Zero S instead, and the longer I have to wait with no end date in sight, the more enticing that Zero S is going to be.

I'm not committed to the Zero S just yet though, since I would really need the bike to be able to do about 70 miles of highway riding (Zero S ZF9 claims 63 miles, which may be close enough). Also, I've been lusting after that Empulse for so long, it would feel a bit like a betrayal to go with Zero! And finally, I'm pretty confident that the Empulse will be a kick ass bike and worth the wait. (Although, that confidence is going to be a bit strained in February, when the Zero S goes on sale!)

[Gavin]

Great post...

+1


Gavin

[Deadly Silent Ninja]

I don't think the Zero S is in any way a competitor to the Empulse as it doesn't offer anything that a potential Empulse buyer would look for in an Ebike. Maybe Enertia buyers, but the price disparity also makes that unreal.

I am pretty unbiased on the discussion as I first tried to test a Zero and was pretty much ignored by the Zero team. I still receive their spam ads in my mail, though, which I find amusing that they still want to convince me to buy a bike that I wanted to test and was denied the option and then ignored in my attempts to make further contact.

Brammo, on the other hand, seems to have great customer service as we see they even fly people just to make sure the bikes are functioning 100%. However, I did give up the wait and took my name off the the list exactly because of the unfulfilled promise of delivering a bike mid-2011.

So, both companies have already presented serious flaws.

The truth is, I am looking for a good looking affordable Ebike that will perform like a real motorcycle and not give me any headaches with maintenance. On paper, the Empulse is the only product that fit the bill. Zero doesn't even get close to that and I don't care if they offer me a free bike. I just can't trust Zero's customer service anymore and that is the most important issue in buying anything that costs me more than $100 (not to say $10K). Brammo's agreement with Polaris put to rest my last doubt about it (availability of service near my area). The only thing left is for Brammo to make the Empulse available before one of those cool looking bikes we have seen here (i.e. Sora and Mission) find a way to get into mass production for an affordable price.
 

[Xaero]

The 112 mile range of the Zero S is a huge lure to that bike.  The lower model is almost the same distance as the Enertia Plus.  Its top speed is higher than the Enertia Plus.  It has the option for quick charging and according to the specs can plug into a 220v plug.  You may even get one before the Enertia Plus.  The only difference is a higher price than the Enertia Plus.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php

I like Brammo as a company (good business decisions) but Zero has 1-uped Brammo with getting their product, with better specifications, to customer quicker (or am I wrong?).  

I myself want to get an electric bike at some point (may be able to early next year).  That 88 MPH max on the Zero S is the biggest draw I have (and stated 42 miles at 70 MPH on the lower model, 62 on the next one up).  Every time I look down at my spedo I see 70 MPH on the roads I drive on and others are doing the same speed or faster.  This isn't the interstate either.  This makes me think twice about the Enertia Plus.

[FreepZ]

[...]  This information is scattered among various other forums ( elmoto.net, electricmotorcycleforum.com , endless sphere, etc) and a couple blogs (again, that I am aware of) started by owners.  Excellent example of that: http://zerods.blogspot.com/

I had a read of that Zero DS blog (back to March 3). It appeared to be a rather honest account of owning the bike. From what I read, the author really likes his Zero, but the customer service in Australia, where he lives, has been pretty bad. I would hate to be in his shoes, so I hope that the bike the I end up with has excellent customer service. I know that Brammo's customer service has been amazing, but I wonder if it's going to be as good when Polaris is doing the service. I suppose time will tell.

[protomech]

The 112 mile range of the Zero S is a huge lure to that bike.  The lower model is almost the same distance as the Enertia Plus.  Its top speed is higher than the Enertia Plus.  It has the option for quick charging and according to the specs can plug into a 220v plug.  You may even get one before the Enertia Plus.  The only difference is a higher price than the Enertia Plus.

Yeah, it's likely that the Zero S will be available before the Enertia Plus.

I think the 220v is a euro-plug only thing. You're still only getting 1kw from the onboard charger, no matter if it's running on 110 or 220.

The extra $2500 over the Enertia Plus presumably buys you a bit more performance and top speed and the lower maintenance of the belt drive. I suspect actual ranges will be very similar between the two bikes, with the Zero having perhaps a bit more range at low speeds.

More importantly, if Zero delivers in February then there really will be no competition.

I like Brammo as a company (good business decisions) but Zero has 1-uped Brammo with getting their product, with better specifications, to customer quicker (or am I wrong?).  

I myself want to get an electric bike at some point (may be able to early next year).  That 88 MPH max on the Zero S is the biggest draw I have (and stated 42 miles at 70 MPH on the lower model, 62 on the next one up).  Every time I look down at my spedo I see 70 MPH on the roads I drive on and others are doing the same speed or faster.  This isn't the interstate either.  This makes me think twice about the Enertia Plus.

Zero has a much faster iteration process than Brammo. Each year they've refined the S, from 2009 to 2010 to 2011 to 2012. Brammo has announced significant and welcome changes to the Enertia to be released with the 2012 Enertia and Enertia Plus, but that's really the first major change the bike has seen since its release in 2009, besides an almost immediate price drop from $12k to $8k in November 2009.

In fairness to Brammo, the 2011 Zero S was the first time that I saw a comparison test that favored the Zero as a complete package. Competition seems to be improving both of the companies, which has the neat side-effect of making electric vehicles more palatable to the rest of the world.

Zero reports "highway commute" range as half the distance traveled at 70 mph, half the distance at 25-35 mph. If you travel the entire trip at 70 mph, the 6 kwh S should do around 30 miles and the 9 kwh S should do around 44 miles. (and by the way, the Empulse should be similar .. 50 miles at 70 mph on the Empulse 10.0 is pretty reasonable).

If you need to travel at 70 mph then the Enertia is definitely out, unless Brammo reveals a higher top speed for the Enertia Plus then it is out as well.

[2Slow4u]

The two are very similar, but also very different. As far as range goes, under the same driving conditions, that simply comes down to the physics of how many kWh you can use, weight, aerodynamics, rolling resistance, and power electronics efficiencies.

Given they both have similar drive motors, the Empulse will blow the Zero S away in a drag race with the IET as well as on the top end. Traditionally EV's haven't used transmissions because they can operate without them, but they do give a performance boost. The other reason is they generally tear up the gear box when shifting under load, this is why Brammo's IET is so revolutionary (if it works).

I will gladly wait another 18 months from now if thats what it takes from a manufacturer to deliver a sport bike that is competitive in the 600cc class for a reasonable price. I've looked into building my own dream electric superbike and the bill of materials is easily in the $20-30k range.

I'm also for more competition in the market place, it drives innovation and costs.

[craigq]

Saw this thread on the elmoto.net forums. Seems like the community is pretty small...

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=33596

[craigq]

In case one did not click on the link, here's some details on Zero's new battery packs from one of their engineers : Yes, we are using a large format Tier1 pouch cell developed specifically for EV use (along with other huge automotive OEM's running this exact cell). It's NMC chemistry, the very chemistry that tested to be safer than all the LiFePO4 offerings available.

And it looks like they went with a Mars brushless motor