2012 Zeros to be at EICMA

[EmpulseRider]

Pretty cool how Zero engineers are hitting the forums... (just like the Brammo guys) just a matter of time before a zeroforum.com or similar pops up. Zero is making insane progress and I think they are helping people open up to electric motorcycles. Very cool.

[oobflyer]

Since the Zero-S and the Brammo Empulse are very similar in capability and price I have a simple solution:

Put a deposit/reservation on both and buy the one that comes out first  :-)

I'm neutral here - I have no bias towards or against Brammo or Zero. I reserved an Empulse when it was first unveiled (Summer 2010).

The competition is on - and the winner will be... us!

[Shinysideup]

Since the Zero-S and the Brammo Empulse are very similar in capability and price I have a simple solution:

Put a deposit/reservation on both and buy the one that comes out first  :-)

I had the same thought, but then I considered there is one huge difference between the two offerings: Gears.

As a person who has built an electric bicycle that is powered through a 14 speed gear hub, I know that gears can have a huge impact, even when it's an electric motor providing the torque.

So, personally, I'm leaning toward waiting until they're both out and see what a test drive reveals.

[Gavin]

One other consideration is company longevity...

Do you think the company will be around 5 years, 10 years from now?

Especially if Honda makes the electric sports bike they are showing in Japan...

That would be hard on all electric start ups.*

Brammo should be fine as they haven't had money issues in the past and also now have a major backer in Polaris....

Zero could have a tougher time as they have had money constraints and do not, at this time, have a large motorcycle/powersport company backing them.

And I still don't see the S and the Empulse being so similar...the S seems more like the Enertia in style, just faster and two up....the Empulse has a different style and riding position and is faster (there are lots of riders who want to "do the ton".  Bursts of 88 mph, with sustained 75 mph,** isn't going to interest the sports bike crowd. But getting north of 100, and doing it fast, that will get the interest of sports bike riders.)


Of course that is likely a whole new thread..


Gavin


*It would be great for electric motorcycles in the long run...EV adoption would benefit Greatly from Honda making an electric and promoting it...but Honda would get the HUGE majority of sales in the first few years...all other companies would have to find a way to "ride out the storm." One way would be to have the support of a large M/C dealership...another reason I love the Polaris deal.

** of course that sustained 75 will be of interest to anybody thinking of getting an Enertia. Just weighing in my head whether it is worth the 2,500 more...and so far it doesn't seem worth it....well that and I'm not sure Zero will be around 5 years from now.

[Brammofan]

One other indication of a company's strength is the stability of the management. Say what you will about start ups... Bramscher is still there; Saiki and Banman aren't.

[Gavin]

And I'm not dissing on Zero, nor going to Zero sites and saying bad things...

As I've said before, I like the DS...i was considering it as a substitute for the Enertia Plus...but the mileage for the 2011 was just shorter than i wanted. I like the 2012 DS and S. Good looks, solid build, very very good specs in speed and range for city/suburban and short highway driving..2 up is sweet (though truthfully I rarely ride 2 up...still I like the ability)...i just wish it was cheaper...the 2012 Ds and S will be great bikes once Zero finds a way to get the price down some. And adds a few more dealerships.

I hope Zero survives...competition is a good thing.

I just think Brammo is a better bet at this time...and the Enertia being under 10k is a big plus.

And my interactions with Brammo have been very good.

Waiting kinda sucks, but hoping the delay = better product and more dealerships and more secure/stable company. If so, the wait is worth it.

Zero can't kill Brammo with a couple of month head start and taking a handful of sales. Nor can Brammo kill Zero. Both can compliment each other...press, bikes, EV adoption...they can benefit each other.

What could hurt either is getting out bad product ( don't see that from either company)...but more likely what can kill them is running out of money before EV adoption happens...kinda why Honda is in no big hurry...the market is small now...as it grows Honda will jump in.

Now if Honda jumps in early, well that will grow market hella faster than currently...which would be great...for Honda...for consumers...not so much the start ups...it is a double edged sword...

Can the start ups survive a slow ramp up of sales around the world, or would they prefer there to be way more customer sales worldwide, but 90% of them going to Honda...either way, not a lot of money to be made right now...

Gavin

[protomech]

The stock motor (used in modified form by the S) can produce a peak of 30kw (~40 hp) for about a minute, before dropping down to ~10kw. Supposing the S can pull that off, it's enough power / time to get you up to 88 mph, past a truck, and back into a cruise.

Motor information from this post (and see the following post from a Zero engineer):
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=33596&start=15#p488795

I don't think anyone interested in sustained speeds much higher than 75 mph will be looking at electric bikes for a while. The battery capacity just isn't there for long high-speed jaunts.

At 75 mph, a 10.0 kwh bike will probably drain its pack in about 40 minutes / 50 miles.

At 100 mph, a 10.0 kwh bike will probably drain its pack in about 20-24 minutes / 33-40 miles.

^^ granted, a gas bike is likely getting 20-30 mpg at 100 mph. So 80-120 mile range on a 4 gallon tank.

114 miles on the Zero S or 100 miles on the Empulse is more than a handful of small tank gas bikes. Only getting better as time goes on.

***

I agree that the Empulse seems like a better deal, especially for the 6.0 kwh models - bigger motor, liquid cooling, IET, $1500 less? I wouldn't be surprised to either see Empulse's final price go up a little or Zero's prices to drop slightly when the Empulse reaches production.

Either way, I hope the Empulse gets there soon.

[Deadly Silent Ninja]

I agree with Gavin in almost everything.

I just wanted to know more about Zero's organizational culture. It seems that some people are going out of their way to leave messages bashing Brammo in different motorcycle forums. I just returned to a few older threads in Motorcycle USA and saw a few new posts that sounded pretty much like what we saw here.
After the treatment I got from them, I wouldn't doubt they are behind it, but I don't know. Just seems too much coincidence that most of the posts are more or last around the same time (I didn't take notes, but I am thinking in going back and note down all the dates of each post when I a have a chance).

Smear campaigns don't belong in the Ebike market. It's way too early in the game to try to take out competition when you still have to prove the quality of the products to the ICE heads... It will only make all Ebikes look bad. If that is in fact Zero's doing, it shows lack of vision (and character). If it's not, Zero should be the first one to try to combat those commentaries like I have seen people in this forum doing to protect other EV brands in other sites. They might try to get their people online and show the reality behind Ebikes and not let false comments spread.

[Gavin]

The stock motor (used in modified form by the S) can produce a peak of 30kw (~40 hp) for about a minute, before dropping down to ~10kw. Supposing the S can pull that off, it's enough power / time to get you up to 88 mph, past a truck, and back into a cruise.

I don't think anyone interested in sustained speeds much higher than 75 mph will be looking at electric bikes for a while. The battery capacity just isn't there for long high-speed jaunts.

At 75 mph, a 10.0 kwh bike will probably drain its pack in about 40 minutes / 50 miles.

At 100 mph, a 10.0 kwh bike will probably drain its pack in about 20-24 minutes / 33-40 miles.

^^ granted, a gas bike is likely getting 20-30 mpg at 100 mph. So 80-120 mile range on a 4 gallon tank.

114 miles on the Zero S or 100 miles on the Empulse is more than a handful of small tank gas bikes. Only getting better as time goes on.

***

I agree that the Empulse seems like a better deal, especially for the 6.0 kwh models - bigger motor, liquid cooling, IET, $1500 less? I wouldn't be surprised to either see Empulse's final price go up a little or Zero's prices to drop slightly when the Empulse reaches production.

Either way, I hope the Empulse gets there soon.

Again, damn good info...

I will say that, other than on track day, Most people don't want to ride 100 mph for thirty miles...they just want to ride 100 mph or more every now and then for short bursts...not even for passing, but just to do it and then tell all their friends

I did get to test ride a 2009 Enertia (more on that later), and for city/suburban riding it is fantastic...instant smooth speed at take off AND amazing passing ability at city/suburban riding...I could go from 30mph to 50mph in a second, maybe a second and a half...

At a light some kids asked me about it (heck everybody was asking about it...as I said, more later) and when I told them it was a commuter bike and only did 60-65 mph top speed, they rolled their eyes....light goes green and I blow right by them...next red light, "dang, that thing is fast"...light changes we take off again and I let them ride with me for a while, then they rev and take off and I turn the throttle and was instantly past them...I turn at the next light and they're beeping and grinning and hanging out the window to give a thumbs up...)

The instant pick up on the Enertia puts my 500cc scooter to shame and I have no question in its ability to "get away from danger" when needed.

Gavin

[protomech]

Now add +130% power for the Zero S .. or +200% power for the Empulse..

Added a link to the previous post about the motor.

Agree about the speed. My GS500 has a supposed top speed of 110+ mph, I've only ever brought it up to 100 mph twice, and those just for a few seconds. Most riders will only very rarely see their bike's top speed, but it makes for great bragging rights and perceived value.

Interested to see your write-up on the Enertia.

[Gavin]

Me too

Give me a week to collect my thoughts...

Till then



Gavin

[oobflyer]

The good, informative posts here are really making me think...

To use the car-start-ups as an analogy - Green Vehicles (Triac), Aptera, Coda, and others started disappearing when the Nissan LEAF came out at a price and reputation that the start-ups couldn't compete with.

If Honda/Yamaha come out with a 10 kWh sport bike at $10K (which they could probably do with their mass-production capability) the bike start-ups might end up in the same boat.

The organizational stability is very important (yes, I'm a Vectrix owner - been there). I was surprised that the founder/owner of Zero disappeared. It would be like Elon Musk leaving Tesla.
Craig Brammscher, on the other hand, has been at all of the motorcycle races that I've gone to in the last few years - accessible and eager to talk about his bikes.

But, after riding electric for a few years the appeal of fast-charging is very strong. If you could stop for an hour, top off your batteries and continue... that would open up whole new vistas.

Most of my life I've ridden sport bikes (Interceptors, Hurricanes, etc.), so the higher speed of the Empulse is attractive... but, as others have posted, how often do you really need to go that fast?

Interestingly - I didn't see the horsepower (kW) listed in the Zero-S Specs, while the Empulse is listed at 40kW. Do we know the horsepower of the Zero?

I do like the looks of the Empulse better than the Zero...

But I do like the two-seat configuration and the belt-drive of the Zero...



Decisions...

[Gavin]

Empulse will be 2 seater

Does anybody know the belt replacement interval?

I love a belt for simplicity, but i do have to replace my belt every 6k on my big scooter
And it ain't cheap...

Gavin

[Vibetrippin]

Gavin, what's the size of your belt. I run a Suzuki 650 Savage that still has the original belt on it. It's an '86 and has a lot more than 6,000 miles on it.

[oobflyer]

Are you sure the Empulse will be a two-seater? I just checked the website and there is no mention of it. I also did a search of the forum and didn't find anything...

How much does it cost to replace the belt? I've never had a belt-drive bike. My Vectrix has a hub-motor and my Honda Shadow has a drive-shaft. No maintenance woo-hoo!