Brammo may drop 6.0 kwh, 8.0 kwh Empulse

[protomech]

Yeah. I'll say this too - you can't do a straight comparison between the Empulse 10.0's 100 mile claim (under what conditions?) and the 2012 Zero S ZF9's 114 mile claim (EPA UDDS). Zero may be a little more efficient (+ lower weight, + regen braking, +/- IET), but Empulse has more battery capacity.

[craigq]

One other thing to consider, especially for the UDDS/stop-n-go testing, is that the Empulse 10.0 projected weight is 420lbs, ZF9 is listed at 341lbs.

Similar to this, I don't understand how the ZF9 UDDS range is simply the ZF6 UDDS range multiplied by the battery capacity difference as the 6vs9 weight difference is 44 lbs, that extra weight has to have an effect on range...

EDIT: where'd my spell-check go...

[860]

... "100 mile / 100 mph" has always been their slogan for the Empulse, and that's probably good enough for most people...

Yea, but we're not "most people", we're Americans.  And if there is one thing Americans want more than anything else, it's MORE!!     


There has been a lot of speculation that the 6-speed transmission will raise the top speed.  If so, they might have to change their slogan anyways.  How does 120 mile / 120 mph sound?  Sounds like MORE to me!!  (And since I'm an American.....)

[protomech]

More thoughts on the battery since last time.

We know:
* Brammo will sell $8000 Enertia 3.1 alongside $11000 Enertia 6.2 (Plus)
* Enertia Plus uses two 44.4v 70 Ah modules, giving 6.2 kWh total pack
* Enertia Plus, Empulse use 88.8v battery packs which are formed from 24 sets of 3.7v cells in series

I suspect:
* Enertia will transition to using Brammo Power Modules as with Enertia Plus
* Enertia will move to an 88.8v pack voltage, same as the Plus and Empulse lineup
* Enertia 3.1 will use two 44.4v 35 Ah modules, giving 3.1 kWh total pack (unchanged)

The simplest way for Brammo to produce its packs is with a 35 Ah pouch cell, same format as this. Brammo can use 24 pouches in series for the Enertia 3.1 kWh¹, and 48 total pouches (24 series, 2 parallel) for the Enertia Plus².

Why is this in the Empulse forum, you ask?

The simplest way for Brammo to build their battery packs is to use one 35 Ah pouch cell among all of its bikes. This means we see pack sizes that are clean multiples of each other - and we're likely to see a 3.1 kWh pack, 6.2 kWh pack, and a 9.3 kWh pack. So Brammo probably *will* offer a low-end and high-end Empulse, at 6.2 kWh and 9.3 kWh not 10.0 kWh.

This may show up in styling vs the concept design. Brammo could do a big-box pack design, a la the Zero S / DS .. two different box sizes for the two different pack sizes. Personally, I think this is ugly; Brammo can get away with this on a faired bike but I think a naked design will use two modules for the 6.2, three modules for the 9.3. Each module will be 24 35 Ah cells in series, or 88.8v 35 Ah.

Pricing

The Enertia Plus (6.2 kWh) is $3000 over the price of the Enertia 3.1. The Empulse 9.3, supposing that my guess is correct, should be priced at $3000 over the price of the Empulse 6.2.

My best guess for the shipping price points and configurations:

Empulse 6.2 kWh $13995
Empulse 9.3 kWh $16995

$4000 price bump over the initial low-end Empulse, and $3000 bump over the initial high-end Empulse. This is pretty extreme, and it may well drive many of their buyers away. Consider the following:

* The Enertia Plus saw a $2000 price bump over its initial pricing with few component changes over the initial design.
* The Empulse has J1772 and IET hardware that was not present in the initial design. Initially Brammo was talking about an offboard charger at that point, which would have been an added-cost accessory not included with the bike. A larger onboard charger won't be cheap .. and IET will likely be quite expensive.
* The Empulse will be initially assembled in Oregon, vs the Hungary Flextronics facility which will assemble the Enertia Plus. I imagine American labor is more expensive than Hungarian labor.

The good from all of this? I think Hollywood Electrics is wrong about the Empulse not shipping this year. I think we'll see the Empulse start to ship around July - August timeframe, but the catch to their offer is the advertised specs.. and we won't see a $14k 10 kWh Empulse. No way, no how.

Note: this is completely uninformed speculation based upon what I see as the most obvious route for Brammo to take. I reserve both the right to be wrong, and the right to say I called it whenever final specifications are revealed ; P


¹ BPM 44/35 is 12 pouches, 12s1p. 12 * 3.7v = 44.4v, 1 * 35 Ah = 35 Ah. Stack the modules in series and you have 88.8v. 88.8 v * 35 Ah = 3108 Wh
² BPM 44/70 is 24 pouches, 12s2p. 12 * 3.7v = 44.4v, 2 * 35 Ah = 70 Ah. Stack the modules in series and you have 88.8v. 88.8 v * 35 Ah = 6216 Wh

[protomech]

A comparison point is that while Zero's S "9 kwh" shares a $14k price point with my hypothetical $14k Empulse 6kwh, a Zero kWh is not the same as a Brammo kWh.

Zero S ZF6 5.3 kWh $11.5k
Zero S ZF9 7.9 kWh $14k
Empulse 6 6.2 kWh $14k
Empulse 9 9.3 kWh $17k

Interpolation:
A 6.2 kWh Zero should be about $12.4k.
A 7.9 kWh Empulse should be about $15.6k.

Either way, the Empulse at my supposed price points is about $1600 more expensive than a similar capacity Zero. Worth it? We'll no doubt revisit this point in more depth when Brammo does release final specs and pricing ... soon, maybe?

[EmpulseRider]

An interview from May of last year Bramscher mentioned:

"(...)But for us, that's why we chose motorcycles instead of cars. It makes sense today, where cars, we think it's three to five years off, because a Nissan Leaf is still twice the price of a Sentra. Our (E)mpluse is the same price as a Ducati Monster.

So, we're at parity now, where we think cars are a few years off."

(http://techcrunch.com/2011/05/26/disrupt-transportation-brammo-ecomotors/)

Hope they stick to that plan, but I wont expect them to sell the 10.0 at 14k, I do hope they have a smaller capacity bike available at a lower price point though, otherwise they may stand to lose those preorder-ers who were aiming to spend just 10-14k.

[skuzzle]

Raising the price of the Empulse 10 would be a bit too painful considering all of the Tax credits seem to be going away too.  I think the EV tax credits in Oregon went away at the end of 2011.  There's still a credit for installing a charging station 

[protomech]

Raising the price of the Empulse 10 would be a bit too painful considering all of the Tax credits seem to be going away too.  I think the EV tax credits in Oregon went away at the end of 2011.  There's still a credit for installing a charging station  

Yes. It's a bit unfortunate that the 2012 emotos are so much better than the 2011 (or previous) bikes, when many of the state and federal incentives expired on Dec 31 2011. Both Zero and Brammo missed the boat, so to speak..

I'd love to see a post-mortem for the Enertia Plus and the Empulse, once the bikes have been delivered. I suspect the true holdup is not the IET, it's the batteries. The Enertia Plus has very few changes over the Enertia Classic, main changes are the motor (from one Perm to another Perm) and the batteries ... and it was still delayed from mid 2011 to mid 2012. I see a bunch of products with NCM / NMC pouches coming online this year .. that weren't available last year.

I think Brammo realized they had a year to kill before shipping the Empulse, and started looking at other ways they could improve the bike. I think we're going to find that the Empulse at high speeds is in a completely different performance category from the Zero bike - like +100-150% power.

Will be interesting to see what the final weights are. Empulse 9.3 may be 440-450 lbs.. Empulse 6.2 will probably be 40 lbs lighter. Who knows, the 6.2 is probably the better performing bike : )