Empulse versus Zero S cost breakdown

[frodus]

I saw on another forum that someone was calculating the cost per mile range of cars, and figured I'd do the same for the Empulse/R and Zero S models. then I went further and tried to put them on a more even playing field with respect to charging. Here's what I found:

Cost per Mile range

Brammo Empulse R
Cost: ~$18,995 retail
Cost/121 Mile range City: ~$157

Brammo Empulse (base model)
Cost: ~$16,995 retail
Cost/121 Mile range City: ~$140

Zero S ZF11.4
Cost: ~$15995 retail
Cost/137 Mile range City: ~$117

Zero S ZF8.5 (base model)
Cost: ~$13995 retail
Cost/103 Mile range City: ~$136

So going by City Only Cost/Mi range the order from best value of cost/mi range to worst is:

Zero S ZF11.4 with L2 capability: $117
Zero S ZF8.5 (base model) with L2 capability: $136
Brammo Empulse (base model): $140
Brammo Empulse R: $157

But all things are not equal...The Empulse and Empulse R come with J1772 L1/L2 as standard (no DCFC yet). Zero bikes come with standard 110V plug only. Users can upgrade the Zero bikes to to be able to charge L1 for $400, add another charger for L2 charge times for $750 or add Chademo for $ $1800.

Charge speeds below for fully discharged pack with city miles
Brammo Empulse R and Empulse Base
L2: 3.5 hours 34.6 miles/hour

Zero S ZF11.4
110V/L1: 7.9 hours or 17 miles/hour
L2: 4.6 hours 29.8 miles/hour

Zero S ZF8.5 (base model)
110V/L1: 6 hours or 17 miles/hour
L2: 3.6 hours 28.6 miles/hour

So lets compare the two on a little more even playing field. To get something along the lines of the Brammo L2 charging capability/speed, you'd need to upgrade the Zero to L2, for an additional $400 + $750 = $1150.

But that isn't exactly the same charge time... so lets calculate some charger cost multipliers.

For $750 you get an increase from 17mi/hr to 29.8mi/hr = 12.8mi/hr on the ZF11.4 and 17mi/hr to 28.6mi/hr = 11.6mi/hr on the ZF8. The cost per mi/hr for each charger upgrade is $59 per mi/hr and $64.66 per mi/hr respectively. That's only the cost of the charger, not the J1772 port, as the charge port has nothing to do with charge times.

So the difference between the Zero ZF11.4 and the Empulse is 34.6-17 = 17.6 mi/hr. So multiply that by $59 and get $1038 equivalent. The ZF8.5 would $1138. Not saying this is possible, but going by the charger costs/charge times, this is what an equivalent 34.6 mi/hr charge capability would cost. Both would need the $400 J1772 charge plug.

Redoing the above numbers for cost/mile for the Zero with charger multipliers
Zero S ZF11.4 with L2 capability
Cost: $15995 + 1038 + 400 = $17433
Cost/137 Mile range City: ~$127

Zero S ZF8.5 (base model) with L2 capability
Cost: $13995 + 1138 + 400 = $15533
Cost/103 Mile range City: ~$151


So going by City Only Cost/Mi range and including the charge multiplier, the order from best value of cost/mi range to worst is:

Zero S ZF11.4 with L2 capability: $127
Brammo Empulse (base model): $140
Zero S ZF8.5 (base model) with L2 capability: $151
Brammo Empulse R: $157

So it looks like Zero S ZF11.4 gives the best cost/mile range, but the Empulse Base Model jumped past the ZF8.5. ZF11.4 increased $10/mi range, ZF8.5 increased $5/mi range.


This is all estimation, but it does illustrate that things are a little closer than they seem at first glance.

[protomech]

Nice analysis.

I'd use city/hwy mixed instead of city only, as that's probably more accurate for many riders. Brammo also does a little better in the city, or a little worse on the highway (hwy is 46% of city) than Zero (hwy is 51% of city) too.

Zero's J1772 setup is less than ideal, as the additional Delta-Q would have to be hauled around in a backpack or bag of some type. Brammo's setup is far more elegant.

By range, the Empulse E1 sits between the S ZF8.5 and ZF11.4 .. I think it's fair to represent the price delta S to E1 at $2000. I think the Empulse has more than $2000 of value over the S .. but the big S has a range edge that Brammo cannot match on a single charge.

[frodus]

Yeah, I was thinking about that....

From Brammo, we're given SAE numbers for the E1 and R as:
City: 121 miles SAE City Riding Range Test Procedure for Electric Motorcycles (variable speed, 19 mph / 30km/h average)
Highway: 56 miles SAE Highway / Constant Speed Riding Range Test Procedure for Electric Motorcycles (70 mph / 113 km/h sustained)
Combined: 77 miles SAE Highway Commuting Cycle (.5 City weighting, .5 Highway weighting)


From Zero, we're given EPA UDDS numbers:
Zero ZF8.5
City: 103 miles
Highway 55mph: 64 miles
Combined city/55mph hwy: 79 miles
Highway 70mph: 53 miles
Combined city/70mph hwy: 70 miles

Zero ZF11.4
City: 137 miles
Highway 55mph: 85 miles
Combined city/55mph hwy: 105 miles
Highway 70mph: 70 miles
Combined city/70mph hwy: 93 miles


Lets assume that SAE and EPA UDDS drive cycles are very similar since both have a 50/50 weighting. Looks like the Brammo E1/R has a higher city range than the ZF8.5 by 18 miles, higher 70mph highway range by 3 miles and higher combined range by 7 miles..... but the ZF11.4 is higher by 16 miles city, 14 miles highway and 16 miles mixed.

Going back to change everything to mixed range and compare...

Cost per Mile range
Brammo Empulse R
Cost: ~$18,995 retail
Cost/77 Mile range mixed: ~$247

Brammo Empulse E1
Cost: ~$16,995 retail
Cost/77 Mile range mixed: ~$221

Zero S ZF11.4
Cost: ~$15995 retail
Cost/93 Mile range mixed: ~$172

Zero S ZF8.5
Cost: ~$13995 retail
Cost/70 Mile range mixed: ~$200

So going by mixed Cost/Mi range the order from best value of cost/mi range to worst is:

Zero S ZF11.4 with L2 capability: $172
Zero S ZF8.5 with L2 capability: $200
Brammo Empulse E1 $221
Brammo Empulse R: $247

No change in order from before.... but then we use the charger multipliers (same as previous calcs):
Zero S ZF11.4 with L2 capability
Cost: $15995 + 1038 + 400 = $17433
Cost/93 Mile range mixed: $187

Zero S ZF8.5 with L2 capability
Cost: $13995 + 1138 + 400 = $15533
Cost/70 Mile range mixed: $222

So going by mixed Cost/Mi range and including the charge multiplier, the order from best value of cost/mi range to worst is:

Zero S ZF11.4 with L2 capability: $187
Brammo Empulse E1: $221
Zero S ZF8.5 with L2 capability: $222
Brammo Empulse R: $247

The Empulse E1 and the Zero ZF8.5 are MUCH MUCH closer!

[protomech]

EPA UDDS is a driving schedule that basically lists a set of time/speed combinations that define a representative city driving route.

The MIC based their city riding range test upon the UDDS. Zero specifies their city range according to the MIC test procedures.

The MIC also submitted their test procedures to the SAE for adoption as an SAE test procedure. Brammo specifies their city range according to the SAE procedure.. presumably this is the same test procedure that Zero uses so they can be directly compared.

[protomech]

Also, cost per mile will almost always favor the largest pack, since the bulk of the bike cost is fixed (controller, motor, frame, charging and cooling systems, suspension, wheels and tires).

If Zero offered a 5 module ZF14.2, it would be in the ballpark* of 171 city, 88 highway 70 mph, and 116 combined. Using cost between ZF8.5 and ZF11.4, ZF14.2 cost would be $17995 ($19145 w/ J1772 quick charge) and cost per combined mile would then be $165/mile.

* I suspect Zero only tests range for one S bike - likely the largest battery bike. Considering rounding, the 3 module ZF8.5 offers exactly 75% of the range in each range category as the 4 module ZF11.4 bike. Likewise for the DS, FX, and XU bikes.

I would expect the smaller battery bikes to do better, proportionately speaking, in city range (lower weight) and worse, proportionately speaking, in highway range (lower per-cell discharge rate = less pack sag). It's possible that both effects are lost in noise.. but just looks odd.

[frodus]

Good to know. Seems to line up pretty well.

While the multiplier might not be real-world accurate, It gives a $$/charge speed multiplier that can be used to essentially compare the two bikes with respect to the charger, essentially putting them on a more level playing field. I don't know another way to really compare with the numbers that both give us.

There's so many variables to consider, just like any other vehicle. I mean, other pros of both might be considered (other than charging ability):

Zero S:
Smartphone application ability
Belt drive/single speed could be either a pro or a con, depending on how you look at it
Air cooled could be either a pro or a con, depending on how you look at it


Brammo:
Brembo Dual 4-piston front brakes (Zero has a Nissin single 2-piston)
Brembo single 2-piston rear brake (Zero has a Nissin single 1-piston)
Marchesini wheels
180/55-17 rear tire (compared to Zero's 130/70-17)
Liquid cooled could be either a pro or a con, depending on how you look at it
6-speed transmission could be either a pro or a con, depending on how you look at it

[frodus]

Also, cost per mile will almost always favor the largest pack, since the bulk of the bike cost is fixed (controller, motor, frame, charging and cooling systems, suspension, wheels and tires).

If Zero offered a 5 module ZF14.2, it would be in the ballpark of 171 city, 88 highway 70 mph, and 116 combined. Using cost between ZF8.5 and ZF11.4, ZF14.2 cost would be $17995 ($19145 w/ J1772 quick charge) and cost per combined mile would then be $165/mile.

Yeah, that's a good point. I'm sure we'll see prices come down too, and possibly the size of the pack go up as you said.

[frodus]

Adding the Zero DS models with city cost/mi range:

Zero DS ZF11.4
Cost: ~$15995 retail
Cost/126 Mile range city: ~$127

Zero DS ZF8.5
Cost: ~$13995 retail
Cost/95 Mile range city: ~$147

Then if we consider L2 charging ability:

Zero DS ZF11.4 with L2 capability
Cost: $15995 + 1038 + 400 = $17433
Cost/126 Mile range City: ~$138

Zero DS ZF8.5 (base model) with L2 capability
Cost: $13995 + 1138 + 400 = $15533
Cost/95 Mile range City: ~$163

Remember that:
Brammo Empulse R
Cost: ~$18,995 retail
Cost/121 Mile range City: ~$157

Brammo Empulse (base model)
Cost: ~$16,995 retail
Cost/121 Mile range City: ~$140


The gearing, controller and motor are all the same for the S and DS models. The only real differences I see are the DS tires and different suspension. The DS is 8lbs heavier.

More calculations for kWh/mi for the Zero DS ZF11.4 is:
10kWh/126mi = 79.4Wh/mi city
10kWh/82mi = 122Wh/mi combined
10kWh/61mi = 164Wh/mi combined

And the kWh/mi for the Zero S ZF11.4 is:
10kWh/137mi = 73Wh/mi city
10kWh/93mi = 107.5Wh/mi combined
10kWh/70mi = 142.9Wh/mi combined

And we have the Brammo Empulse R/E1:
9.3kWh/121mi = 77Wh/mi city
9.3kWh/77mi = 120.8Wh/mi combined
9.3kWh/56mi = 166Wh/mi combined


For City, Zero S to DS jumps from 73Wh/mi to 79.4Wh/mi on city, and from 142.9Wh/mi up to 164Wh/mi for highway at 70mph.

That's a bit surprising. Do dual sport tires really cause that much drag that would put the DS into the same range category as the Empulse?

Something smells a little fishy.... That's an ~9% increase in Wh/mi useage in city, and a whopping 15% increase on the highway.

[860]

For City, Zero S to DS jumps from 73Wh/mi to 79.4Wh/mi on city, and from 142.9Wh/mi up to 164Wh/mi for highway at 70mph.

That's a bit surprising. Do dual sport tires really cause that much drag that would put the DS into the same range category as the Empulse?

If tires matter that much, it would be interesting to see what a set of narrower/smaller tires would do for the Empulse's efficiency.  It seems over-tired to me from the factory for use strictly as a street bike. 

[emotodude]

Just to point it out. Some folks don't want/need/or have J1772 charge capability. This swings the cost/mile pretty favorably in the Zero direction. The 11.4 S would be only $102/mi. Just because the J1772 option is available on the Zero is no reason to only compare the J1772 L2, just because you cannot get 110v option as a price reduction on the empulse.

I hope that makes sense.

[frodus]

I was putting them apples to apples. Since I can't take the J1772 off the empulse I decided to add it to the zero.

[protomech]

I'd really like to see a J1772 charger on the Empulse (and the Zero) that can pull 30A. That's a relatively gentle charge rate (0.6-0.7C) and it would significantly extend the effective range for both bikes.

Zero has updated their options list with some new accessories, including some slightly updated charging options.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5

They now have a nicely integrated J1772 socket option for $500.


The socket alone doesn't increase the charge rate; you'd need one or more accessory chargers to charge quickly on L2. Those chargers do not integrate neatly into the bike as with the Empulse; it's possible they could be mounted on the sides or in saddlebags. The Empulse J1772 level 1 cable also takes up significant bulk in a backpack or saddlebags.

I don't think it makes sense to compare the Empulse R or the Zero DS. Neither of those bikes really have competition. Zero doesn't offer a premium sportbike, and Brammo doesn't offer a dualsport.

Let's look at the E1 vs the two S models.

Empulse E1: $16995, 77 mile range combined, 3.5 hour 3.0 kW charge rate to 99% (22+ miles per hour).
I assume that the last 5% takes about 0.5 hours, so 0-95% is closer to 3 hours (24.4 miles per hour).
Empulse E1 effective range with 1 hour of charging: 101 miles, $168/mile

The S models offer 3 configurations: stock, 1x accessory charger, 2x accessory chargers.

Stock:
Zero S ZF11.4: $15995, 93 mile range combined, 7.4 hour 1.3 kW charge rate to 95% (11.9 miles per hour)
Zero S ZF8.5: $13995, 70 mile range combined, 5.5 hour 1.3 kW charge rate to 95% (12.1 miles per hour)
Stock S ZF8.5, ZF11.4 effective range with 1 hour of charging: 82, 105 miles; $170/mile, $152/mile

1x accessory charger $1100 total ($600 charger, $500 integrated inlet):
Zero S ZF11.4: $17095, 93 mile range combined, 4.1 hour 2.3 kW charge rate to 95% (21.5 miles per hour)
Zero S ZF8.5: $15095, 70 mile range combined, 3.1 hour 2.3 kW charge rate to 95% (21.5 miles per hour)
1x AC S ZF8.5, ZF11.4 effective range with 1 hour of charging: 92, 115 miles; $165/mile, $149/mile

2x accessory charger $1950 total ($600 charger x2, $500 integrated inlet, $250 Y adapter):
Zero S ZF11.4: $17945, 93 mile range combined, 2.8 hour 3.3 kW charge rate to 95% (31.6 miles per hour)
Zero S ZF8.5: $15945, 70 mile range combined, 2.1 hour 3.3 kW charge rate to 95% (31.7 miles per hour)
2x AC S ZF8.5, ZF11.4 effective range with 1 hour of charging: 102, 125 miles; $157/mile, $144/mile

This is a silly exercise; Zero's J1772 charging solution is a kludge, plain and simple. But if you're willing to deal with the kludge, Zero's bikes are still offer a little more range for a little less money.

I don't know how much sense it makes to consider the ZF8.5 either; anyone wanting to install more chargers would almost certainly buy the larger battery. And perhaps that's why Zero doesn't offer a faster charging solution yet; look at the stock ZF11.4 vs the 2x AC ZF8.5. Basically the same cost and same range after 1 hour.

I wonder which bike people would prefer at equal cost. Maybe time for a poll : )
* 70 miles combined range, charge @ 32 miles/hour
* 93 miles combined range, charge @ 12 miles/hour