Another from Chicago

[00049 (AKA SopFu)]

Now that there are two of us out here, how about supporting a dealer out here?

I have been indirectly working with some of the worlds largest and most sophisticated batteries for about three years, and can't wait to get my own EV.  Add to that my love for motorcycles, and Brammo seems like the perfect solution.

Two questions:

What am I obligating myself to by pre-ordering a bike?

What kind of storage requirements are there given Chicago's cold winters?  I imagine the cold is better than a hot garage in the summer, but should the bike be plugged in?  Kept in a heated garage?

[Brammofan]

Howdy, Sopfu!
You're obligating yourself to having an intent to buy when the Empulse is within a certain number of days before delivery  What does that mean?  That means that, come whatever day Brammo sends you an email saying, "it's time, do you want your Empulse?" you'll respond one of two ways:
a. Yes! Here's my $x for the deposit, or
b. Not really, circumstances have changed, can't afford it, they have hydrogen bikes now, etc. 

So, by preordering today, you're saying, "I really would like to have one of these, so put me on the waiting list." 

Clear as mud?  Okay, what you really want to know is, "If I pre-order, and then decide I don't (or can't) buy one, what happens?"  And the answer to that is, "nothing."

You can find information on cold and hot weather stuff in various sections of the forum (Hey Phantom... can you find that for him?  I gotta feed my kid).  We should put it in the FAQ.  Maybe we already have.

Welcome, Again!

[Phantom]

Welcome to the forum. If you find a dealer near you, you can let them know that Brammo is looking for dealers and they can apply at Brammo.com.

Just to add to Brammofan's post:

If you pre-ordered, it is my understanding that you will be asked for a deposit (maybe 90 days) in advance of shipment.

Here is the thread with an answer from thespecialone (Brammo employee) that mentions the Empulse pre-order question:
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=338.0



I am storing my Brammo in an unheated garage for now. They batteries are charged, but it is not plugged in. The owner's manual suggests that you not charge your bike if it is below 32F or 0C.

A heated garage might be better. I might move mine into my house soon because the garage is also being used due to the snow on the ground. It has been below freezing for some time in my neck of the woods. I don't think Chicago summers will be hot enough for you to be concerned. The are some Enertia riders in southern CA that are doing fine.

A Brammo is a great solution. Which bike are you planning to get?

[00049 (AKA SopFu)]

I am looking at the Empulse 10.0.  I have a 32 mile round trip commute (although there are EV charging stations at work if I want to park at a different building), and it's all interstate.  I also believe that riding slightly faster than the flow of traffic is safer, so I typically run at ~75mph.  I would also like to be able to do things after work like hit bike nights and what not. 

My SV gets race tires, and then doesn't see public streets until after the last track day.  I've been commuting with my Duc, but it gets awful mileage and is too hot to wear nice clothes.  I figure the Empulse would be a great commuter, and would allow me to save the Duc for touring and weekend rides when I can stretch its legs.

WRT winter storage, will the BMS in the bike ensure that the batteries do not freeze?  I have seen first hand the damage poorly maintained batteries can do, and would rather not have my personal property at stake.  Admittedly, the problems I know of were due to overheating or BMS problems and not freezing.

[Brammofan]

Found it, here. Information is reliable, as it came from BrammoBrian:

Cold start should not be an issue for you.  The lower operating temperature range for the batteries is -10 degrees C, which is 14 degrees F.  Storage temperatures can be as low as -40 degrees C. 

The only issue I can imagine is if it exceeded the low end of the operating temperature range during the night and the batteries, which have significant thermal mass, were not able to warm up to operating temperature when you wanted to ride.  Also... although the bike uses sealed components, connectors, etc... exposing it to the moisture condensation that might occur as the sun comes up may introduce other issues.  Fogging in the dash is one I can think of right away.  I'd recommend your backyard under some kind of cover if this is your best option. 

Range will be affected by temperature due to increased impedance in the cells.  The effect will be relatively minor though and about on the scale as Phantom has noted.

[Phantom]

Nice, I am also getting an Empulse. Your plan seems fine and I think you are lucky to have a variety of bikes like that to choose from.

The following was ripped from the Enertia Owner's Manual:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you won’t be riding for an extended period, such as during the winter, thoroughly inspect your Enertia and correct any
problems before storing it. That way, needed repairs won’t be forgotten and it will be easier to get your Enertia running
again.
We suggest you perform the following procedures to keep your Enertia in top condition. These storage procedures will
reduce the deterioration that can occur during storage.
Preparation for Storage
1. Wash and dry your Enertia. Wax all painted surfaces (except matte surfaces).
2. Lubricate the drive chain (page 65).
3. Inflate the tires to their recommended pressures (page 60).
4. Fully charge the bike (page 39).
5. Store your Enertia in an unheated area, free of dampness, away from sunlight, with a minimum of daily temperature
variation.
6. Place your Enertia on blocks to lift both tires off the floor.
7. Cover your Enertia with a porous material. Avoid using plastic or similar non-breathing materials that restrict air flow and
allow heat and moisture to accumulate.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

It does not mention any risk to the BMS. I kept my Enertia charged in my unheated garage last February with no problem.

[00049 (AKA SopFu)]

It does not mention any risk to the BMS. I kept my Enertia charged in my unheated garage last February with no problem.

Yes, I can't imagine any damage to the BMS due to cold.  The problems I was referring to were caused by BMS malfunctions during charging which lead to fires.

Thanks for all the help!

[Phantom]

Brammo has a great safety record from what I know.

No problem.  I like helping out future Brammo owners. Your questions will help educate both Brammo owners and potential Brammo owners.

[00049 (AKA SopFu)]

I am personally not worried about safety.  Like any energy storage, there is a lot of energy waiting to come out.  Improper use can be dangerous.  The battery's we used were generally custom-built for very specific applications with custom BMS's operated with peak performance in mind.  I am sure Brammo's BMS has been thoroughly vetted with safety as the highest priority - if they didn't they probably wouldn't still be operating. 

[oobflyer]

I am storing my Brammo in an unheated garage for now. They batteries are charged, but it is not plugged in. The owner's manual suggests that you not charge your bike if it is below 32F or 0C.

Curious: I've been riding even in subfreezing temps - what would happen if I plugged in the Empulse at work when the temp is below freezing?

[Richard230]

My guess is that your bike would charge, but you wouldn't get as full a charge as you would when it is warmer. Most batteries don't perform well at low temperatures.

[oobflyer]

Yes, I've noticed decreased performance in the winter, with the cold weather. I was more curious about what Phantom wrote about not charging in subfreezing temps. If the owner's manual says not to charge it sounds like a safety or mechanical problem. If the recommendation is intended to just inform riders of the decreased performance in colder temps that's understandable.

[Phantom]

By following the tips listed below, one can assure long life and high performance of your Enertia’s BatteryModules.

• Operate your Enertia at temperatures below 104°F (40°C), charge at temperatures between 32°F (0°
C) and 113°F (45°C).

The manual does not mention a safety issue, but the caution seems to be directed toward battery life and performance. The battery performance does decrease in colder temperatures. I have contemplated using a small space heater to warm the air near the batteries before a charging in a cold garage. The high temperature forecast in my area is 11°F tomorrow.

[oobflyer]

Interesting - where I live it's below freezing when I go to work in the morning (in winter) and it's well over 104F for months in the summer. I wonder if the same recommendations will apply to the Empulse.

When it's below freezing do you charge the Enertia? Do you ride?

[Phantom]

Yes, I ride when it is below freezing, but I have not charged it below freezing yet.

I am guessing that the Empluse batteries will have a wider operating and charging temperature range from what I have read.

http://www.leydenenergy.com/index.php?page=pouch