Author Topic: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)  (Read 6599 times)

Gavin

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Re: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2011, 04:36:48 PM »

The first bikes from production will go into long term high mileage testing.

Everyone who has pre-ordered will be kept full informed via the Empulse Newsletter and they will be contacted by their local dealer 90 days before their Empulse goes into production.

Rest assured delivering the Empulse in volume is our #1 priority.

Thanks for the reply and info...

A) I am ready to do the long term-high mileage testing as soon as those first bikes are made :)

B) what happens if we don't have a local dealer?

C) does the "90 days before Powercycle goes into production" still apply to the Plus pre orders too?

Thanks

Gavin

Gavin

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Re: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2011, 04:45:42 PM »
Well the Enertia probably doesn't need a 6 speed....but I wouldnt mind having two gears....basically the fourth gear from the graph above and also sixth....most days 0 to 55 is fine, but I would love to hit a shift and get the Plus up to 70-75 on some stretches of road...sure I'd kill my range, but I would increase my smile :)

Gavin

protomech

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Re: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2011, 05:02:57 PM »
Well the Enertia probably doesn't need a 6 speed....but I wouldnt mind having two gears....basically the fourth gear from the graph above and also sixth....most days 0 to 55 is fine, but I would love to hit a shift and get the Plus up to 70-75 on some stretches of road...sure I'd kill my range, but I would increase my smile :)

Gavin

Plus should have enough battery to get useful range at 75 mph. 35-40 miles is enough commute range for most people .. in fact, that's more real-life range than you get on the Enertia 3.1 at 35-40 mph average.

80 mile ranges on the Plus are likely also at 35-40 mph, which means 2-3 hours on the bike. Not many people have commutes like that, which means that either the bike allows for charging every other day or significant errand running. Or pleasure riding on slower roads.
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valeek

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Re: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2011, 09:50:10 PM »
Okay, so I seem to be in the minority here, but I'm really frustrated.  I got the newsletter today stating that the IET would be standard in the Empulse.  Well, that's not exactly what I signed up for. 

First off, I'm not a motorcycle enthusiast, I'm an EV enthusiast on a budget. I love the Empulse becuase it's an EV first and foremost.  It's an EV that I can afford.  There's no way that I could ever afford a Leaf on a middle school teacher's salary. But I've been saving up pretty much since the announcement of the Empulse and was hoping to be able to pay cash for it early next year.  The one thing that sold me on this Empulse was that not only would it go Interstate speeds if necessary, go the range that I need it to, look kick-a around town, but primarily that I wouldn't have to learn how to shift gears like standard motorcycles.  I mean, that was the selling point right there. I've never driven a motorcycle before, but that one bit of tech had me hooked.  I really thought that one of the plus sides of being an electric vehicle was that it required a fraction of the parts of its ICE counterparts.  Doesn't a transmission just add complexity to a streamlined, simple, revolutionary device?  It's like adding a physical keyboard to an iPhone just to make it more like a computer.  That would be just trying to make it fit into the mainstream, detracting from the fact that it's setting a standard that doesn't need to be compared at all to any modern competitor.

I am number 995 in line for an Empulse, but this is no longer the Empulse I signed up for.  This seriously has me looking at a Zero S, despite the fact that it's speed is slightly slower than an Empulse, and it's look is not quite the street bike persona I was going for.

Help me out here. Was I wrong to think that Brammo was an EV company first? Or are my expectations just skewed?
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Gavin

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Re: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2011, 11:03:22 PM »
The plus sounds like a much better bike for you then the Empulse. Lighter and easier to ride. A very easy "first" bike.

The zero s has a max range of 58 miles. Much less than that at highway type speeds. And the top speed of 67 mph is similar to the Enertia.

The Plus will be an easy bike to learn on...I imagine it's top speed will be similar to the Zero S...though I am hoping  Brammo gets the top end to 70-75, but who knows right now.

Longer range and lower price compared to the Zero...and in a few years you can move up to the Empulse after you get more comfortable on a bike and when Brammo has improved the Empulse and maybe even added a single gear version.

Gavin


valeek

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Re: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2011, 06:10:09 AM »
The plus sounds like a much better bike for you then the Empulse. Lighter and easier to ride. A very easy "first" bike.

I've looked at the Plus, and there's two things about the Plus that makes me hesitate: 1) I'm just not a big fan of the styling.  Not to say that it isn't an innovative look, it's just doesn't match my personality. 2) The air cooled battery system fan.  Because I'd be plugging this up at work, outside of classrooms, I'm afraid that the fan would be a distraction to the middle schoolers.  I know that the Empulse has a liquid cooled system that makes it quiet while running and while charging.
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protomech

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Re: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2011, 07:53:20 AM »
The one thing that sold me on this Empulse was that not only would it go Interstate speeds if necessary, go the range that I need it to, look kick-a around town, but primarily that I wouldn't have to learn how to shift gears like standard motorcycles.

Theoretically you could unbox the Empulse, put it in an intermediate gear (say 4th), charge up the bike, and never touch the clutch or shifter again in your life.

Take a look again at this chart of an Enertia 3.1 with a simulated IET, and the power at speed available in each gear. 4th gear is geared essentially the same as the actual Enertia's direct drive, and so it is a useful comparison point.

[smg id=283 width=500]

Below 20 mph, the actual Enertia's motor is operating below its power band in a torque-limited regime. IET can increase the gearing ratio, increase motor RPM into the peak power band, and improve wheel torque/power performance by 30-40%.

From 30 to 50 mph, the actual Enertia is operating inside that peak power band. IET has very little benefit here.

Beyond 50 mph, the actual Enertia's motor is operating above its power band and swiftly falling off in power output as RPM increases. IET can decrease the gearing ratio, decreasing motor RPM back into the peak power band, and significantly increase both performance and maximum velocity up to the point where the bike becomes drag-limited (likely 70-75 mph).

A gas bike needs a clutch to get the bike moving from a dead stop, and it needs a multi-gear transmission to enable it to operate within a fairly narrow power band.

An electric bike will produce 100% torque from a dead stop, and has a much broader power band. The Enertia above produces 80% peak power from approx 25 mph to 55 mph .. a gas bike with similar gearing would produce 80% peak power from say 45-55 mph. There's substantially less need for a multi-gear transmission on an electric bike -- thus making it a worthwhile exclusion on a commuter bike or low-cost bike -- but it does improve performance at the low and high rpm ranges.

Quote
I really thought that one of the plus sides of being an electric vehicle was that it required a fraction of the parts of its ICE counterparts.  Doesn't a transmission just add complexity to a streamlined, simple, revolutionary device?

IET adds complexity, weight, packaging, and cost. It decreases range through additional weight and presumably slightly lower efficiency than direct drive. It can increase efficiency through operating the motor at a more efficient RPM, if the motor has a low efficiency range that the motor typically operates in. It can significantly improve performance at low RPMs below peak power and at high RPMs above peak power. And if you use that significantly improved performance then your range will plummet ; P
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Gavin

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Re: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2011, 08:08:04 AM »
Valeek...cool...also I agree that Brammo should make a single gear AND a shifty version of the Empulse...

Sell the single this year, add the shifty next...more options and quicker sales...both are good things.

Gavin

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Re: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2011, 08:58:21 AM »
Does anyone have a comparison chart like the one above with the Enertia without the IET?

That would help people understand the reasoning for the IET.

protomech

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Re: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2011, 09:38:32 AM »
[smg id=285 width=500]

Based on a Motorcycle.com dyno test of the Enertia.

http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=250361

For the simulated IET I picked 4th gear to be identical to the direct drive gearing of the Enertia 3.1. If you locked the simulated IET into 4th and never moved it, you get exactly the same power curve as you do on the Enertia sans IET.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 09:40:40 AM by protomech »
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Richard230

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Re: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2011, 10:19:33 AM »
From speaking with the Brammo staff at the Infineon Raceway earlier this year, I got the impression that operation of a clutch would be needed to get the Empulse underway from a stop. That could be an issue for people who do not have IC riding experience. I think getting a motorcycle underway using a clutch without stalling the bike is probably the most challenging part of operating a motorcycle for a new rider.

It is going to be very interesting to see how Brammo integrates the 6-speed system into the Empulse concept by the time it goes into volume production.
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Phantom

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Re: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2011, 10:50:17 AM »
I think getting a motorcycle underway using a clutch without stalling the bike is probably the most challenging part of operating a motorcycle for a new rider.

Instead of stalling an ICE motorcycle, would an electric motor just be less efficient with improper clutch usage (i.e not moving to the next gear)?

protomech

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Re: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2011, 01:45:21 PM »
It's possible that the IET may be substantially weaker than a single speed transmission. Certainly Tesla had significant difficulties with a two-speed transmission in the Roadster. Starting with the clutch partially/fully disengaged may help to protect the transmission from the physical impulse of the motor suddenly applying torque.

If the transmission is significantly weaker then you likely will need to use the clutch to start from rest -- and the motor controller likely will enforce this if so.
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kingcharles

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Re: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2011, 08:41:42 AM »
I am afraid that for a little performance increase we loose a lot of reliability.
Why is the Empulse RR not fitted with the clutch and gearbox?
My guess is that it would break...
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Re: Six Speed Empulse - It's official(?)
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2011, 09:23:19 AM »
I am afraid that for a little performance increase we loose a lot of reliability.
Why is the Empulse RR not fitted with the clutch and gearbox?
My guess is that it would break...
Your guess would be wrong, however. They intend to implement the 6 speed gear box on the race bike (AFAIK) but didn't have time to do that before the 2011 racing season.
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