Zero response to Empulse?

[craigq]

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/zero-motorcycles-2013-brammo-empulse-killer/#more-30073

[Deadly Silent Ninja]

If this is true and came out of Zero's HQ, it just shows how narrow-minded they are. I thought they had outgrown their competitive-child mentality, but it might be too imbedded in their corporate culture.

It really shows that they don't know their target market at all. Electric motorcycle buyers have a different way of seeing the world and "destroy all options" is not it. If they want to appeal to the more competitive buyers, they will need to race their bikes and win. That would actually be an awesome way to market electric motorcycles in general. If they start having better races than the ICEs, momentum would change very quickly.

Simply creating an antagonist atmosphere with Brammo and BRD only shows lack of vision in a very tight market. I apologize to those in here who bought Zeros, but that kind of cutthroat business culture is exactly what people in the electric market should avoid. At this moment, Zero would do better in trying to help expand the market instead of trying to be the "king of kindergarten."   

 

[Gavin]

Wait....

So first the 2012 redesigned Zero S was going to be an Empulse killer.

Then it was that the Empulse was vaporware.

Now: The 2013 Zero will be an Empulse killer...

Oh well, at least Zero is consistent.



The S seems like a nice bike that is doing well...not sure what Zero thinks this line does to help them? If anything I wonder what people who bought the 2012 S thinking it was a "proper" street bike will think about Zero now claiming that next years bike, not this years, is the true Empulse competitive "proper" streetbike?

Oh well...Zero makes a nice bike...I hope they do well...in the meantime, can't wait for the May 8th reveal of the Empulse.

Gavin

[Mr.Rodgers]

Not sure if this was already confirmed, but Brian said they weren't heading back to the isle of man this year in the comments section

[machone]

Thanks Mr Rodgers. Possibly had been confirmed but I didn't know and was looking for the answer. Pity, I was planning to go. I don't think the bike revolution in Europe will happen until Electric bikes start setting faster times around that historic track. When that happens, it's all over for the ICE motorbike.

[Car Loss]

Meh.  From the article, I gather that Zero is under pressure from their moneymen.  If true, what can we (or they) do?  This is why that Triumph dude insisted on financing from his personal fortune, and not having moneymen who could go behind his back.  Seems to have worked for him, since Triumph is still alive and kicking. 

This wouldn't have happened if Zero, too, had a sugar daddy on board with the program, oh well.  Or at least, like Brammo, a partner like Polaris that is genuinely, technologically interested in electric drive, and is not simply trying to turn 6% instead of 5.5% this quarter.  Brammo came out ahead of Zero in that department, which is why _they_ are alive today.

Since I don't have the accounts to be Zero's sugar daddy, I won't judge.  If they can legitimately produce an Empulse killer, I invite them to try.  Brammo hasn't sealed the deal until units are on dealer floors, and Zero might still find a way to beat them on availability or price or looks or whatever.  I'd prefer, of course, that Zero kept offering something like their current bikes, as an entry-level/mass-market product, and keep the e-moto market broad and deep (such as it is).  However, they may not have the deep pockets to work on two lines at the same time, and I'd understand that even if I don't like it.

[Deadly Silent Ninja]

I just think Zero is shooting itself in the foot from a simple market standpoint. They have great daily commute motorcycles and could probably be a force in many motocross and other racing arenas, but to go out of their way trying to antagonize other companies is just dumb. Actually, if they really positioned themselves as the largest electric motorcycle company in the US, they shouldn't even bother with the other companies. In the end, they are actually giving more attention to the other brands without really having anything to show (which is not true, ergo the stupidity).

Instead of showing their current products in a great light for what they are, they are wasting time and money saying that the other brands' products are better than theirs and that they will have a better product in the future, which devalues their current products.

They should invest more on success stories like Fabio's. A true motorcycle enthusiast who loves his Zero. That would help Zero as a brand, but it could also show to a few ICErs that electric motorcycles are fun and useful. Personally, I think that the more the elmoto industry can get true race pilots, famous motorcycle enthusiasts, and other people who are well respected in the ICE community to public ride an e-bike, the more market you will have for everyone to make money. And Zero already has a good advantage as they are the ones with the best production and selling numbers at the moment. Am I missing anything here?

[FreepZ]

Meh.  From the article, I gather that Zero is under pressure from their moneymen. 

I think Car Loss is right.

The article says:

[The private equity firm] has a healthy legacy of quick-failing the management teams in its portfolio companies.

And:

[Zero's] pre-order list for the Zero S & Zero DS virtually vanish when the Brammo Empulse was unveiled.

Based on that statement, the e-moto market is still quite small, and Zero feels that every sale for Brammo is one less sale for Zero. The management at Zero may be desperate to keep the Invus Group (the moneymen) from pulling the plug on them.

I would love to see Zero promote growth of the e-moto market rather than trying to kill off the competition, but it really depends on how patient and forward thinking the Invus Group is.

As for e-motos beating ICE, that's already happening in the dirt bike arena. Even when electrics start to beat ICE bikes regularly, it's going to take a long time for the battery technology to beat gas for range.

[Richard230]

When I read the A&R article, I really don't see it as Brammo bashing. What it tells me is that the Zero management is under a lot of pressure to produce a new EV, one that is not based upon their original S and DS designs. I have talked to three low-level Zero employees over the past couple of months and every one of them has been very enthusiastic about electric motorcycles, has has had nothing bad to say about Brammo and wished them well. All they really had to say was that Zero chose to go in a different direction than Brammo, making a relatively low-budget EV, one without the complexity or cost of a transmission, liquid cooling system, high-tech chassis components, etc.

I think these occasional disparaging comments about Brammo that pop up now and again are being leaked by some troll in Zero's advertising department and is being spun a bit by the press - which loves any type of controversy they can find.

If Zero can come up with an "Empulse killer", I say more power to them. However, I doubt that they can do that within only one year, especially if they plan to integrate a gearbox and a battery cooling system into their design. It would be really risky to do that without a lot of development and testing, which takes time. If they screw it up and the bike falls apart after being sold to a lot of customers for big bucks, the company might just go under. 

I always had the impression that Zero was in the business for the money, but then that is what businesses do, so I can understand their approach to producing their vehicles, even if I feel a little uncomfortable with that approach as an enthusiast.  On the other hand, I always had the feeling that Brammo was more into the fun of developing their bikes and making the best EV that they could and making money was a secondary consideration. 

However, as a Zero owner, I just hope their investors don't manage to run it into the ground trying to be the "big dog" in the business. In the long run, that wouldn't be very good for them or me.   

[skuzzle]

If Zero wants a successful road bike they should stop making them look like dirt bikes.

[Deadly Silent Ninja]

I really don't see it as Brammo bashing.

I don't think this is about bashing. It's about positioning. Zero is the leader in the market. They are the most interested in opening the market. That's the number one concern to any leader in a small market.

I agree that there is a lot of extra noise in their communication, but that was originated by Zero's employees doing the bashing in the past. Now, I do believe that Zero outgrown the bashing side, but announcing any product as the "whatever killer" gives "whatever" the position as the best product in the market while hinting that there are no current products to compete against it. It's a shot in Zero's foot. Zero has great motorcycles in the market right now, which appeals to a group of riders who might not have any interest whatsoever in buying an Empulse. So, this communication simply puts the Empulse, which hasn't even reached the market yet, on a pedestal, while disregarding Zero's great commuting and off-road bikes they just released. It's just doesn't make Zero any good.

[Deadly Silent Ninja]

If Zero wants a successful road bike they should stop making them look like dirt bikes.

That, too! 

[Brammofan]

Frankly, I think the credit of the while article is called into question when the author puts Brammo in the same category as BRD. I really liked the BRD folks, but until they actually produce a motorcycle (other than a concept or prototype), they aren't in the same class as Brammo or Zero.

[protomech]

Here's the only reference I can find about a 2012 Zero bikes being an "Empulse-killer"..
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/2012-zero-motorcycles-leak/

Note, also from A&R. Just before 2011 EICMA, he was a bit off on pricing and dead-wrong on the all-new bodywork. And the Empulse killing, aside from perhaps the 2012 bikes stealing a few sales ; )

If Zero wants to produce an Empulse killer then they have three options:

1. Use a high voltage (200-300v) electric motor. I believe BRD and KTM's emotos are going this route.
2. Use a much higher power low voltage motor. Heavy.
3. Use a multi-gear transmission.

I recall hearing somewhere that Brammo had an exclusive partnership with SMRE and that SMRE had some patents that would block a similar electric transmission. Assuming they decide not to license these patents, that would rule out #3.

Without a multi-gear transmission I think the Zero will have a hard time competing on the all-important 0-60 times.

[Gavin]

had to go look....

interestingly, same site...maybe Jensen likes to use that term? Perhaps it is his phasing and not Zero's??

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/2012-zero-motorcycles-leak/


ah, the wonders of the internet...never sure what is real or not....

G