Author Topic: (Very) Early Observations  (Read 4488 times)

protomech

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2014, 11:01:56 AM »
Any resolution to your charging speed reduction, Auslander?

Negative, Ghost Rider. :/

Once Brammo sifted through a pile of charging logs and determined it was the charging unit, they sent one out to the dealer.  They were two weeks out on bookings, which put it to Memorial Day weekend, I was gone then, etc, so it wasn't until this past Saturday I got it in.

I hope Brammo can get you a satisfactory resolution to the charger problems. They have historically been very good about resolving issues, so if they are falling short I suspect it is due to overload rather than disinterest.

Don't be afraid to escalate if you feel you're being stonewalled or if the dealer is underperforming.

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I get that Brammo is a boutique builder, but so is Ferrari, really. The Enertia+ has about the same top end and range (tho not at the same time, of course) as a DRZ400, but costs over 30% more.  The DRZ's plastics are far more resilient, and for a bike that is mostly machine-assembled and spot-checked, things like stripped bolts or inserts don't happen.  A handmade bike, you'd think someone would notice.

Ferrari in the 1970s and 1980s was infamous for exactly these types of issues. They were a boutique builder but without the rigor that they seem to possess today (see also Lamborghini).

From the sound of it, the Empulse has a higher degree of build quality. So I think Brammo is also improving over time .. not that it helps you with your Enertia Plus.

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Pardon my disposition here, but this who thing is starting to fucking suck.  Saturday I emailed two charge logs to Brammo, one from the dealer to see if they could tell how long they charged for, and the current one (45 minutes in) where the draw was back down to 1 amp.  Last night I emailed Brammo asking if they had ideas for our next course of action.  No response to either of those emails.

Hopefully Brammo will get back to you soon about the charge logs.

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Thanks to the log reader I can see for instance a charge log from 06.2013 (a year ago, well before my recent purchase of it), 8 hours on charge, the bike went from 76% to 88%.  Point here: Someone should've noticed before it was sold.  The earliest charge log, 02.2013, shows it on charge for 2.5 days.  The highest value shown is 90.9% (I suspect this is a bug with something, somewhere, more below).  The 2nd charge log, 23 hours, same thing.  Next entry is the 06.2013 I referenced above.  Interesting, is a snip like this at the end of a charge log:
SOC 90.9% (100.0, 100.0, 38.8, 38.8, 98.8, 98.8, 100.0, 100.0)

Does that look right?  Maybe Enspector isn't reading something right from the Enertia's log format.  That is from a charge that started 04.12.14 @ 2229, those values above were taken at 04.13.14 @ 1105, 12 hours on AC.  In some other logs, the numbers for positions 3, 4, 5, and 6 (where the non-100.0 values are above) all show 0.0 when SOC is close to something like 40%.

I ran a charge after the dealer trip on Saturday, after I interrupted to pull the logs, that ran from 1558 to 1515 the next day, just shy of 24 hours.  The log viewer shows 90.9% though the bike's dashboard showed 100%, hence my suspicion that something may be amiss with the log parser.  The above oddball values (38.8, etc) are exactly the same as the snip above, in the last log entry prior to unplugging.  Does this represent bad batteries?  Did I get a lemon?  WTH?

If a discrepancy exists between what you see on the dash and what you see with the log parser, I would suspect the log parser first of containing an error. We're mostly just guessing at what the values in the log files mean - there's no documentation on the files.

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BTW, Protomech, at least for Enertia+ logs, using your log viewer, position 17 looks to be amps.  I can see the graph initially jump to 9, then drop to 1 or 2 and hold there the duration of the time AC is plugged in.

It is pretty cool when guesses work out though : )
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Auslander

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2014, 11:44:23 AM »
I hope Brammo can get you a satisfactory resolution to the charger problems. They have historically been very good about resolving issues, so if they are falling short I suspect it is due to overload rather than disinterest.

Don't be afraid to escalate if you feel you're being stonewalled or if the dealer is underperforming.

Much as I'm bummed, other than ranting here and in the one email I referred to, I'm biting my tongue and biding my time.  I want to see it work.  I want to have enough confidence to justify an Empulse in the next few years.  Also bummed that just a few weeks after purchased, a no-miles Empulse comes up on the forums, in my neck of the woods, at a stellar price.  *That* really gets me, right here <thumps chest>.

I don't doubt it'll get resolved eventually.  It just seems this could/should have been caught by someone, somewhere, before it hit the sales floor, let alone reached a customer.  At least it charges eventually, and doesn't affect riding or use.  I'm fortunate that I can make it to work and back 2x without charging.  If I had to charge at work in order to get home, as some do, it'd be a showstopper.

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Ferrari in the 1970s and 1980s was infamous for exactly these types of issues. They were a boutique builder but without the rigor that they seem to possess today (see also Lamborghini).

From the sound of it, the Empulse has a higher degree of build quality. So I think Brammo is also improving over time .. not that it helps you with your Enertia Plus.

Correct.  Quick background:  In the early 90s I worked at a bike shop, the world's first, and at the time still only, mountain bike specific store.  We had a few mass-produced lines (notably Specialized and GT), middle of their lines on up, and also boutique frames (Mantis, Salsa, Fat Chance, Yeti, Mountain Goat, Rock Lobster, Merlin, Bontrager).  During my time there, front suspension came on the market, then rear-suspended frames.  Mantis was just up the road from us, and we were close with the guys there and at all the above listed except the last two, so I had a good idea on what went on in manufacturing at small shops.  Mantis was possibly the smallest shop of the list, producing on average 700-900 frames a year, for example, what was basically a two-man shop handling production plus time to prototype and test new designs.  The Chumbawumba was originally designed for our shop and produced by a customer, who later bought when the original owner sold.

Granted, mountain bikes are not motorcycles.  But at the time, things like "titanium" were new and exotic, people outside the government were still learning to machine and weld it.  Making bikes as light as possible (since, you no, no motor to help haul it around) and still be as strong as possible were critical. Failures were awful, since the terrain failures occurred on were far from smooth, and riders wearing even BMX armor were few and far between.  I remember one racer broke his collar bone (both sides?) when prototype carbon fibre bars sheered both sides off during a downhill.  Every ounce mattered, but so did every detail, down to water bottle bosses.

That was 20 years ago, manufacturing methods to some degree may be consistent but design has grown easily with the help of computer and modelling software available at the consumer level, plus tooling has moved forward and come down in price.  While this is "just" a nutsert spinning in place, it prevents the panel from being removed.  As stated, my concern is that some day it needs to come off for service, the bike may be out of warranty then, and it's out of my pocket to address.  No longer having a local dealer means I can't just point and say "hey, this is an issue, at least note it and see if we can resolve it soon, eh?"

The issue with the plastics... that's a bad design issue, IMO, and should be addressed.  Loosening the bolts that hold the lower panel to remove it, just loosening them all so no one bolt held too much weight or stress, caused the upper right one (near the VIN tag) to crack it's upper arc off, leaving a bare hole dangling in the wind.  I dropped a small washer on the bolt and it seems to hold fine, but that should not happen.  Under 300 miles, there shouldn't be enough vibration or road stress to cause it to weaken up.  Reassembling I noticed the holes in the plastic are very specific to where they line up on the bike, whereas any other bike I've ever touched the holes in the plastic are larger to allow for a little more wiggleroom with assembly.  Holes too small, not enough margin between hole and edge of plastic, plastic not as flexible as what I see on Suzuki, BMW, Ducati, Yamaha, and the thickness of the plastic near the mounting holes, all factors that I think led to it cracking the first time bolts were loosened.  I feel all those contributed, and all of those, again in my opinion, constitute poor design.  The four brands I cited all do what I suggest, and likely all do it for the same reason: extend the life of the plastic, and make service and assembly easy.  Not sure about Honda, never owned or worked on one.



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If a discrepancy exists between what you see on the dash and what you see with the log parser, I would suspect the log parser first of containing an error. We're mostly just guessing at what the values in the log files mean - there's no documentation on the files.

What I expected, which is why I pointed it out as I did, rather than imply that the dash is wrong and the bike never being fully charged. :)  The entries that read well less than 100%, those are still a question mark for me.

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BTW, Protomech, at least for Enertia+ logs, using your log viewer, position 17 looks to be amps.  I can see the graph initially jump to 9, then drop to 1 or 2 and hold there the duration of the time AC is plugged in.
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It is pretty cool when guesses work out though : )

Yeah.  Just wanted to point that out in case it helps make more sense of what you're parsing or if you wanted to add a label to that function slot in a later release.

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2014, 11:09:45 PM »
Auslander,

I'm very sorry for the troubles you are having and I can assure you that we are, in fact, working on a solution.  I also understand your frustration in losing your local dealer, but I can also assure you that you have something better by having a direct relationship with the manufacturer.  I am aware that you have exchanged emails recently with Adam, our Service Manager.  The fact that Adam was not able to respond immediately was due to him being sent out of town on business. 

I have requested the log files to look through myself, but I have a couple of questions:

1. Where do you charge your bike?  I would assume in your garage at home?
2. Is the garage shared with other vehicles that are arriving home at around the same time? 

Regarding the plastics:

1. The threaded inserts were chosen to specifically prevent permanent damage being done to the frame of the bike if an insert is cross-threaded.  Those nut-serts can be drilled out and replaced and any dealer would be able to do that.  I'm sure we can get this one resolved quickly so you shouldn't need to hold any anxiety over this one.

2. The plastic cracking - It is strange that you mention that you had to add a washer to this part as the bike should have always had a washer there to spread the load. I will challenge your statement on the quality of the plastic, however, as we use a very expensive (compared to other OEMs) Polycarbonate and PT blend due to it's superior mechanical properties.  I do agree that we did not leave enough tolerance for mis-alignment and manufacturing variance in the design of the parts.  This makes installation more difficult than it should be. My apologies - we made corrections in the next opportunity we got with the design of the Empulse plastics.
What color is your bike so we can have a replacement sent?

Again - very sorry that your experience thus far has been anything short of positive.  That is clearly not a good situation for us as a manufacturer as we'd like to convince you to "stay in the family" as we release future products.  I will connect with Adam on this tomorrow and I'm positive that we'll be able to move you towards a resolution you'll be satisfied with.  You are definitely not going to be left hanging. 

Auslander

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2014, 12:22:28 AM »
Auslander,

I'm very sorry for the troubles you are having and I can assure you that we are, in fact, working on a solution.  I also understand your frustration in losing your local dealer, but I can also assure you that you have something better by having a direct relationship with the manufacturer.  I am aware that you have exchanged emails recently with Adam, our Service Manager.  The fact that Adam was not able to respond immediately was due to him being sent out of town on business. 

Understood, he eventually got to me and related that.

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I have requested the log files to look through myself, but I have a couple of questions:

1. Where do you charge your bike?  I would assume in your garage at home?
2. Is the garage shared with other vehicles that are arriving home at around the same time? 

1. Bike is charged in garage.  I tried three outlets, different circuits, each with nothing else plugged in, with and without extension cords.  The bike will charge fine at 8 to 9 amps for ~22 minutes.  If the circuit was bad I would expect it to be consistently low.  I have no ability to test at work, there aren't any external outlets I can get to.

2. Garage is shared with two others bikes, and my car.  No other vehicle is moved around the time the Enertia would be plugging in.  Time of day that a charge is started does not affect the above pattern.  Ambient temperature does not impact the pattern.

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1. The threaded inserts were chosen to specifically prevent permanent damage being done to the frame of the bike if an insert is cross-threaded.  Those nut-serts can be drilled out and replaced and any dealer would be able to do that.  I'm sure we can get this one resolved quickly so you shouldn't need to hold any anxiety over this one.

2. The plastic cracking - It is strange that you mention that you had to add a washer to this part as the bike should have always had a washer there to spread the load. I will challenge your statement on the quality of the plastic, however, as we use a very expensive (compared to other OEMs) Polycarbonate and PT blend due to it's superior mechanical properties.  I do agree that we did not leave enough tolerance for mis-alignment and manufacturing variance in the design of the parts.  This makes installation more difficult than it should be. My apologies - we made corrections in the next opportunity we got with the design of the Empulse plastics.
What color is your bike so we can have a replacement sent?

1. Once I saw nut-serts were in place I figured it was to prevent stripping the frame and having to use a heli-coil as a patch, and possibly to provide a deeper threaded surface than the frame material may allow for.

One note here included in my feedback to Adam/Jake: All of the 4mm caphead screws were on barely snug, for both the bottom plastic and both lower side panels.  I suspect that may have been to prevent stripping or spinning the nut-serts, but they were in so gently that I could put the long end of an allen key in the cap and break them loose using only the short arm of the allen key for leverage; barely more than "finger tight" with the compound on them.

2. Interesting that it's polycarbonate.  I used to work with both poly and acrylic and am used to physical properties differing the two (fun fact, narrow strips of 1/8" poly can be tied in knots, acrylic will shatter).  Color is black metallic.  Not sure offhand the official title of the color.

I'm attaching four pictures.  I just pulled one of the two upper screws (right behind the fork, topmost screws for lower body panel), which is also where the crack was.
 - The first is the caphead screw, where you can see the factory washer, you're correct, one was installed.  Also present is the washer I added to spread the load on the upper two holes.  The next pictures illustrate why I felt this was necessary.
 - Second pic is the remainder of the upper right hole where the crack occurred when I was loosening screws to remove the lower panel.  Once more: All screws were still in place, I was loosening to remove stress, rather than removing each screw entirely, which risks binding and stress on remaining mounting points, and the upper moon went *crack* and popped off.
 - Third pic is the left side during installation, showing where the panel lines up naturally, off the mount point by about 1/2".
 - Fourth shows alignment with me pushing up fully on the panel to get the plastic to align with the mount hole. Still not fully there.  That's a lot of stress for those two thin upper moons to carry.  At this point in reassembly, lower bolts are loosely in and are not tightened down or binding.  It appears to be a poor fit all the way around.  If it was last assembled (Brammo? Dealer?) by hanging the plastic from the top screws, then lower screws installed, leverage could easily provide enough stress to crack that moon off eventually, wouldn't you think?  These are the two bolts I added the larger washers to, to spread the load out and hopefully preserve the left side and provide coverage on the right side where there's no longer any plastic for the factor washer to cover.

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Again - very sorry that your experience thus far has been anything short of positive.  That is clearly not a good situation for us as a manufacturer as we'd like to convince you to "stay in the family" as we release future products.  I will connect with Adam on this tomorrow and I'm positive that we'll be able to move you towards a resolution you'll be satisfied with.  You are definitely not going to be left hanging.

Thank you, Brian.  Adam's been doing the best he can under the circumstances, as manufacturers obviously aren't meant to support clients directly, by design.  Like I mentioned towards Protomech, I'm kind of rolling with it, the bike's functional and rides as it should (at least, I think it is ).

If feedback is worth anything at this point, aesthetically, on a 2013 sitting beside a 2012 in the dealer's warehouse, a 2012's wiring beneath the headlight looked a LOT cleaner, no quick-disconnects dangling in the breeze, etc.  I saw beyond that as just a minor thing, slapped some looming on to clean it up, but it may be a deterrent to potential customers looking for uber-clean build quailty.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 12:44:04 AM by Auslander »

Auslander

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2014, 10:44:34 AM »
OK, time for an update, and resolution. Yay resolution!

I worked with Adam, who was kind and patient enough to work with me, and (recap, I lost the local dealer almost immediately after purchasing) Brammo sent an ace technician out with pretty much any and all parts related to charging.  With the top body panel removed it was obvious how hot it was getting: could not touch the heat sink fins, they were scorching hot.  I'm not sure where heat levels *should* fall, but the rule of thumb when dealing with integrated circuit chips was "if it's too hot to touch with the back of your finger, replace it".  This was definitely too hot to touch.  The former dealer would've caught this if they charged it as long as I directed them to.  I only mention this because they're where my BMW should be getting serviced, and I'm not entirely comfortable bringing anything to them at this point.

Moving on!  With the new parts in place, the cooling fins are warm to the touch, but you can leave a finger placed on one as long as you'd like.  So, distinct change for the better, there!  It had one charge cycle (~30% to 100) after the parts were replaced, I ran it down to ~30% the following weekend and recharged again.  Charge time was indicated at something like 4:56, and it took about 5:15 to charge.  Since batteries are in a loose sense like big resistors, closer they get to full the higher the resistance which is why, if you're an OCD-level clockwatcher, you may notice that the jumps between SOC levels slows the higher the SOC is, and charge time may be seen extending slightly with each (or every few) tick of SOC increase.

So, I'd say it's normal behavior at this point, and charging properly, a *drastic* increase over the 20-22 hours it was taking previously.  The first test with Brammo was done directly off the outlet, my 2nd with the extension cord in the easier-to-park-in location, same performance in both cases, considering SOC was identical at the start of each run.  The cooling fans click on a little later than they did before (since the fins aren't overwhelmed with heat to bleed off) and they spin higher/louder later in the cycle (now I understand the noise comments made in other threads) and then spin down when SOC hits 100 and it shifts from charging to balancing.

Only thing I notice that's different now vs. before is after charging/balancing over night, when first booting up, SOC reads 99 and not 100.

In addition to the charging, Brammo addressed the spun nutsert, made sure others exposed for the job were seated properly, and also the lower body panel which had cracked.  Amazing level of service and follow-up just not seen in American production today.

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2014, 11:13:41 AM »
Great to hear your BrammoJoy has been restored!

Although I have an Empulse, I too most often see 98% at the end of the charge. I have a steep, 500 foot long hill as I exit my house. After regen down that hill, the SOC reads 100%. No worries.

Auslander

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2014, 12:30:44 PM »
If I take the back way out of my neighborhood to head south, There's a long drop I can roll down, but I eat at least 1% getting to the start of it.  I did notice that the engine draw shows 0.3 when stopped, no matter how slowly I roll to a stop, no-throttle-but-slow-enough-to-not-feel-regen.  But, that may have occurred before, also.  I leave the dash in the info mode and never use the motor or battery graph, but may have just not paid that much attention to it previously.  The numbers can be a little difficult to read with polarized sunglasses on, fortunately the speedo is an analogue needle. :)

But, yes, very happy it's charging properly!  I was fortunate in two regards: Riding was not affected, and I could make it to work and back on a single charge.  Due to the length of charge cycles, charging during a full work day may not have been enough to get me home if work were further from home than it is.

I also got the Givi cases for commuting.  I carry two laptops, and one's just a brick (really, it needs rackmount tabs on it) and putting them on your back and riding just sucks (and in the past had one keyboard on a Dell (Sony?) get intermittent, likely from riding on my spine.  Unfortunately it seems the measurements for length and width are measured at the opening and not the base (sides taper) so the large laptop doesn't fit in the case as I'd hoped.  Since that experiment didn't work, and I have the Givi frame, I'm going to try the throw-over Ortlieb "thin" dry bags from Aerostich a go, which will take some mods since there's no passenger pegs for straps to toss around (550 paracord loops to the front pegs should suffice, and ride flush enough to not catch on boots).  Looking forward to it, already review my accounts I can see that my auto fuel-ups are less frequent than before.  Commute's short, it eats up the MPG in the car, but with 50-60 MPH zones it was eating battery fast, and the long charge cycles presented an issue for frequent use.  Now that that's behind me (us! thanks for feedback and support, everyone!) I can, quite literally, move forward.

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Re: Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2014, 12:48:11 PM »


The cooling fans click on a little later than they did before (since the fins aren't overwhelmed with heat to bleed off) and they spin higher/louder later in the cycle (now I understand the noise comments made in other threads) and then spin down when SOC hits 100 and it shifts from charging to balancing.

My cooling fans are either on at full blast or off completely.
There is no modulation of the fans to a slower pace depending on power draw.
Is that normal for an Empulse?
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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2014, 12:52:15 PM »
Unfortunately it seems the measurements for length and width are measured at the opening and not the base (sides taper) so the large laptop doesn't fit in the case as I'd hoped. 
When I have to take my work laptop to/from work, I have to either carry it in the messenger bag across my back or put it into the Givi and bungie-cord it closed. It's not pretty, but it works.
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Auslander

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2014, 02:04:35 PM »
When I have to take my work laptop to/from work, I have to either carry it in the messenger bag across my back or put it into the Givi and bungie-cord it closed. It's not pretty, but it works.

I could go messenger bag, but the weight is still there, since the Brammo doesn't have a passenger post out back I could let the weight sit on while just using a cross strap to compress them against me so they don't shift.  If they fit in the Givi I was still going to put a few laters of neoprene down on the bottom to give them a little cush and reduce vibrations (thereby hoping to prevent any premature physical failures in the machines).  The Ortliebs have a stiff insert (snaps in place, even) and since their fabric should naturally 'give' just enough to absorb any major buzz from road surface.  Roads in Austin are rather bad in some spots (bad surface, and a lot of sags from gravity wells... I don't think I could trust a bungee, or even a cinch-strap.  Once these blasted thunderstorms let up I'll circle back on how the Ortliebs worked.

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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2014, 06:32:40 PM »
It's great to hear Brammo got you figured out. That's the same type of service I received when I was having the low voltage electrical issues on my Empulse, and when my cold-riding abuse left me stranded. Brammo literally called me (as a result of a post to this forum) before I even made it home and could find their number. Sometimes having the right person in your corner makes all the difference, too. Glad to hear Brammo is staying in the customer's corner!

It's funny that you mention time remaining extending towards the end of the charge cycle. My bike is the polar opposite. I try to unplug at 85 to 90% before I go to bed, and plug in when I get up so it tops off right before I leave (a habit from winter to warm the battery before the cold morning ride to work). When first plugging in the time remaining would read about an hour, but it would be full after 45 minutes. This is the same whether it's 40f outside or 70f, so not temperature related.
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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2014, 10:34:14 PM »
Measuring SOC is a black art at best. I wouldn't worry about 99% vs 100%.

Great to hear Brammo pulled through for you on servicing. Also loved reading your posts - very detailed.
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Re: (Very) Early Observations
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2014, 06:45:40 PM »
Measuring SOC is a black art at best. I wouldn't worry about 99% vs 100%.

Great to hear Brammo pulled through for you on servicing. Also loved reading your posts - very detailed.

Heh, thanks, Proto!  I'm a nerd, by profession, so being able to find patterns and consistencies as part of trouble shooting is part and parcel of my life now.  It removes the 'black box' mystery of technology and things just start to become obvious.