Input on Charger Design

[Shinysideup]

What will the Victory Charger look like? Your guess is as good as mine. And Polaris isn’t talking yet, other than to tease with a “mid 2015” date, which has led many to speculate that it will be, at least for now, a re-branded Empulse that’s first out the chute.

But what about the future? Many have pointed out that a cruiser-style bike has the advantage of a low seat height (good for shorter folks and for the confidence of newbies) and provides plenty of room for batteries, increasing the range. And Victory IS a cruiser brand, after all.

When I saw the recent image of Arthur Kowitz’s nicely faired machine on Brammo’s FB page, it occurred to me that a design that was properly faired AND that had a lower center of gravity might be ideal for an EV moto design, even though we all “know” that bikers are conservative and resist new designs.

Here’s Arthur:

https://www.facebook.com/eMotoRacing/photos/pcb.915357935183598/915357751850283/?type=1&theater


But we also know that moto companies seem to have a challenge in attracting new riders. Maybe a new design would attract younger customers.

So when I saw Arthur’s carbon fiber wonder, what popped into my mind was Dan Gurney’s Alligator bike. In reading up on it, I was struck at how the wheelbase isn’t as long as looks (60" vs. 58" for the Empulse and 66.5" for a Victory Hammer 8-Ball), at how the low center of gravity was highly praised by professional riders who tried it out, and at how much space there would be for batteries.

You can read riders' impressions here:

http://allamericanracers.com/alligator-motorcycle-riders/

This one struck me as maybe of interest to Polaris' marketing department:

"Rick Haas, Sunday Rider: 'The Alligator is the most confidence-inspiring motorcycle I have ever ridden!' "


The basic design and lots of facts are here:

http://allamericanracers.com/alligator-motorcycle-dan-gurney-post/

A tricked out chromed-out version can be seen here:



Polaris, are you reading this? Can you see something like this recumbent approach, outfitted with the famous Victory sweeping bodywork, being an attractive, bold entry into the eMoto arena?

If it were light, aerodynamic, torquey, and handled curves with certainty and speed, I’d sure like to ride one. I'll bet a lot of riders would like to race one. Be sure to have options for luggage. Beating competitors' range wouldn't hurt either!

[roma258]

I really, really hope it doesn't look like either of those bikes. Call me conservative, but that is such just too much of a leap for mainstream acceptance, no matter how many advantages it has. And considering that right now, electric motorcycles make the most sense in a crowded urban setting, a streamliner fairing just makes no sense. A nice half-fairing like this gentleman?

Sure. But some recumbent weirdness is a sure way to kill your electric brand (imho).

[Richard230]

I figure that Polaris has had a lot of time to decide what form they want their electric bike to be.  My guess is that it will be a cruiser.  They have just never shown any interest in a sport bike and an e-cruiser would occupy a unique spot in the market.  Plus, they wouldn't be following H-D, but leading them. So that is what I am putting my 2 cents on. 

[Shinysideup]

Both Richard and roma are undoubtedly correct. Still, I can dream! As for a recumbent design being weird, that's what they said about the first Prius and it's doing pretty well.

[Richard230]

The problem that I see with the recumbent design is the low height of the rider while riding on a multi-lane highway.  I think that is why the Alligator didn't sell well (along with its high price). Who wants to be riding along the freeway with your head at the height of a semi-truck's axle and wondering it the truck will be changing lanes while you are stuck next to him?  (Some years ago, pocket bikes were all the rage and now you never see a one on the street. I think their low height contributed to their sales demise.)  I believe that most motorcycle riders feel a lot safer while riding when they are at least high enough off the pavement to see over a sedan's top, if not past an SUV's rear hatch. So I am not putting any money on any major motorcycle manufacturer coming out with a recumbent design.

[Shinysideup]

Yes, I'm aware of that general viewpoint (no pun intended!).

I actually rode an Easy Racer recumbent bicycle* for several years, including in San Francisco traffic. Since my head height was about the same as car drivers, I never felt imperiled. I never felt the need to fly a orange pennant on a flagpole, as many riders do. I always assume I'm either a) invisible or b) a target.

While I appreciate being higher than car rooftops on my Empulse, I'm used to not seeing optimally, especially on the freeways, due to the explosion of SUV's in recent years, and now with many of them having tinted windows, the landscape becomes dark boxes all around me. On most days it seems sedans are the minority.

Being a bit lower down, IMHO, wouldn't change the equation significantly. But public perception is a powerful, slow-to-change force, agreed.

AND, I still want to scream through some twisties on an electric recumbent motorcycle. Maybe I'll have to drift over to elmoto.com and get some help building one!

*Side story: 35 years ago I had a friend with a pickup truck haul me and the bike to the top of Mt. Waialeale on Kauai. I had fitted the bike with a large bubble windshield and a 60T front sprocket driving a 11T rear. I rode it back down to sea level for a 5000 foot descent in 11 miles. I ended up in an impromptu race with a VW rabbit who obviously got away from me on the straights, but I'd catch up in the turns. Hit speeds of 55 mph and had a grin that lasted for hours!

[Richard230]

The March issue of Motorcycle Consumer News, contains an interesting 4-page article, starting on page 26, regarding the chief designer of the Polaris Indian Scout and how he designed the motorcycle.  The fellow's name is Rich Christoph and he spent several years working for H-D on their recent Sportster series of retro bikes, before moving to Polaris in 2011 to work on the Scout.  I found this quote by Christoph fascinating: 

"At Polaris you feel not only are the right people making decisions, but the right decisions get made, and they get made fast.  At Harley, decision-making descended into a quagmire of meeting after meeting, then training on how to have a meeting followed by meetings on the training.  At Polaris, everyone gets in a room, the drawings go up on the wall, everyone discusses it, has their say and then a decision is made.  And you move on, Polaris schedules are so aggressive and the environment so fast-paced, you just don't have time to hesitate and wait - we have to move."

It sounds like a fun place to work.  And Polaris sounds like a company that gets things done.  I really think they are going to love working on the Brammo electric motorcycles.   

[roma258]

The March issue of Motorcycle Consumer News, contains an interesting 4-page article, starting on page 26, regarding the chief designer of the Polaris Indian Scout and how he designed the motorcycle.  The fellow's name is Rich Christoph and he spent several years working for H-D on their recent Sportster series of retro bikes, before moving to Polaris in 2011 to work on the Scout.  I found this quote by Christoph fascinating: 

"At Polaris you feel not only are the right people making decisions, but the right decisions get made, and they get made fast.  At Harley, decision-making descended into a quagmire of meeting after meeting, then training on how to have a meeting followed by meetings on the training.  At Polaris, everyone gets in a room, the drawings go up on the wall, everyone discusses it, has their say and then a decision is made.  And you move on, Polaris schedules are so aggressive and the environment so fast-paced, you just don't have time to hesitate and wait - we have to move."

It sounds like a fun place to work.  And Polaris sounds like a company that gets things done.  I really think they are going to love working on the Brammo electric motorcycles.   

I'm at a point in my career where I'm starting to run meetings on big projects and this is the goal I always strive for. Get in, talk about the issues at hand, come to some sort of resolution, move on to the next thing. Doesn't always work that way, but most people seem to like it.

[barboo]

I really, really hope it doesn't look like either of those bikes. Call me conservative, but that is such just too much of a leap for mainstream acceptance, no matter how many advantages it has. And considering that right now, electric motorcycles make the most sense in a crowded urban setting, a streamliner fairing just makes no sense. A nice half-fairing like this gentleman?

Sure. But some recumbent weirdness is a sure way to kill your electric brand (imho).

That's my bike! I like the sport fairing look. Naked is fine as well.

[roma258]

I really, really hope it doesn't look like either of those bikes. Call me conservative, but that is such just too much of a leap for mainstream acceptance, no matter how many advantages it has. And considering that right now, electric motorcycles make the most sense in a crowded urban setting, a streamliner fairing just makes no sense. A nice half-fairing like this gentleman?

Sure. But some recumbent weirdness is a sure way to kill your electric brand (imho).

That's my bike! I like the sport fairing look. Naked is fine as well.

Looks great! Watched your video, definitely seems like the fairing gives a pretty nice advantage over the naked bikes on the straights.

[Shinysideup]

This may be a minor point, but one that is important to my use of a bike:

Have a nominal 12V supply that  actually supplies 14V (to make heated gear more effective) and let users pull 20 amps, so it matches the capacity of, say, a Bosch alternator fitted on BMW airheads.

While you're at it, include a 12V supply plug that's some standard configuration (cigarette lighter?) and accessible.

Here's one rated at 30A:

http://www.waytekwire.com/item/11010/POWER-SOURCE-12V-OUTLET/

[dbsuperbiker]

There is an elephant in the room!

We saw in the video, the faired bike outrun the naked, what you couldn't see very well was my streamliner outrunning the conventionally faired bikes., and had more energy left after the race.
It isn't a fashion show, it's racing.

If form follows function, we'll see more streamliners on the track, and maybe someday on the street.
Faster and more range.

[protomech]

dbsuperbiker:

Is that your slipstream Empulse rocketing away on the left at the start of the race?



Just checked your post history, I'm guessing that you are Arthur. I didn't realize you were posting here : )

Very cool to see the slipstream fairing continuing development. I saw it racing at Barber last year; have you made further tweaks to the fairing? Have you compared with other Empulse racers the maximum speed between slipstream, sport-faired, and non-faired bikes at the end of the longer straights?

[roma258]

There is an elephant in the room!

We saw in the video, the faired bike outrun the naked, what you couldn't see very well was my streamliner outrunning the conventionally faired bikes., and had more energy left after the race.
It isn't a fashion show, it's racing.

If form follows function, we'll see more streamliners on the track, and maybe someday on the street.
Faster and more range.

The thing is, streamliners aren't exactly new technology, pretty sure they've been outlawed from ICE racing for decades. As far as why they haven't made the leap to the street, the question is do the advantage they offer transfer to the street environment? I honestly don't know, for electrics maybe they do.

Btw, Roebling looks like a very open track. Do you find the streamliner gives you the same advantage on tighter, more technical tracks like Barber or Grattan?

[dbsuperbiker]

yes, that is my streamliner 'rocketing' away...nice choice of words.
The longer the track, the greater the advantage. However, even on the shorter courses it is an advantage, albeit small.
I ran the same bike unfaired, then with a Ninja fairing, and now the full streamlining.
Top speed figures with the same motor, batteries, controller went from 108, to 117, to 126.
As mentioned before, each time I reduced wind drag the energy consumption also went down.
Since you saw the bike at Barber, I have replicated the original fiberglass test model in carbon Fiber. The weight of the nose fairing went fromn 20lbs to 6lbs.
It is very nice to ride with 14lbs removed from the front wheel.