Opinion - Why electric motorcycles are failing.

[sunchaser]

This video makes some valid points about why electric motorcycles are struggling in the marketplace.

[Richard230]

I have been considering this subject for the past 10 years and have come to the conclusion that motorcycle enthusiasts and buyers are so conservative that they are just not interesting in moving away from noise, shifting, lots of obvious power and the lack of any "range anxiety".  Plus, as Fortnight says, there is also the little matter of price and what you are getting for that money. Motorcyclists and the people that repair and sell them are a lot more familiar with mechanical stuff, and electricity is just something mysterious that they don't understand. But mostly, they want people to see and hear them.

Can you imagine a Hell's Angel type, riding a big cruiser with chrome skulls, finger-less gloves, leather jacket with a club patch on this back and a WWI German helmet with a spike on the top riding a quiet electric motorcycle? How would anyone know to look their way so that they can show off their uniform and scare little children and grandmothers? 

I was at Alice's Restaurant this morning and I could hardly hear myself think from all of the noisy sports cars and motorcycles that drove by. None of those vehicles made that kind of noise when they left the factory. Their owners had to work on the cars with hammers and hacksaws to make them sound like that. When I visit motorcycle forums, one of the longer threads, after windshields, seats and the best oil it use, are where can I get a louder muffler. 

My opinion is that the only way the motorcycle market is going to transition to electric power, other than for city transportation, is if governments outlaw their sale as they will be doing to automobiles within the next 10 or 15 years. But even when that happens, you may not see the kind of sales that will attract the major motorcycle manufacturers for many more years after that until electric cars become the norm in our society instead of just a small percentage of vehicle ownership. 

[Richard230]

Meanwhile FortNight has just published another YouTube clip that follows along my general line of thinking regarding motorcycle noise and mechanical history that just won't fit into H-D's electric future without them creating a new brand that will keep quiet and smooth electric propulsion at arm's length from the Mother Ship. Near the end of the clip he mentions "closed minds", but I am not sure if that applies to both H-D and their 200K buyers each year. Probably both.  :

[HadesOmega]

Well one reason is that electric motorcycle tech is lagging far behind automobile tech.  Automobiles are getting 100+ even 200+ miles range now.  I know it because they're bigger and you can put more batteries on them but yeah.  Most vehicles have DC fastcharge capabilities already.  Only very few electric motorcycles have DC fastcharge.  Also automobiles have forced cooling for batteries now, I know it's not feasible to have that on an electric motorcycle but the battery is first thing to overheat.  We  have watercooled motors like the Empulse but the first thing to overheat is the batteries. 

Also there are not enough different electric motorcycles.  Most electric motorcycles are upright standard/naked motorcycles.  There's not really any sport bikes, adventure bikes, cruisers, etc...  There just not enough competition out there unfortunately.     

[Richard230]

But the bottom line for manufacturers that is keeping them from investing more heavily in the technology and designing different types of electric motorcycles is that they are just not seeing a big enough market to make a profit doing so.

However, I do find it interesting that BMW is apparently using their electric car batteries and technology wherever they can on their electric scooters to good advantage. But when it comes to traditional motorcycles they can only show us weird SF-like concepts that most motorcycle enthusiasts would be embarrassed to be seen on.

[ManuH]

There are some technical challenges for a successful electric motorcycle but we are getting closer and closer.

Energica managed to put 21.5kWh on their bikes. That is twice the battery of the TT. Zero also made great progress with their SR/S SR/F line. Level 3 charge allows for very fast charging and some motorcycles like the Energica or Livewire take less than an hour to recharge.

I get that attracting the closed minds and old timers will be hard. But a lot of young people are starting on e-bikes and may find that an electric motorcycle is a big upgrade compared to what they had.

I myself started on an electric scooter limited to 40mph and 40 miles of range. So for me, the TT is really a big upgrade: more than twice the range, twice the speed (and more) and acceleration is 10x. Recharge time is also much better.

The next step for me would be a motorcycle able to recharge in 30 minutes to 80% and a range of 125 miles on highways.

[HadesOmega]

Another thing is the price.  If you compare to ICE bikes you can get a very nice ICE bike compared to a nice electric bike.  All the bikes are in the $10+ range you figure most riders and particularly new riders will want something under $10k

[sunchaser]

Price and battery energy density are definitely not helping the sales of electric motorcycles.  The perceived value just isn't there for the average buyer.  With the current battery technology, electric scooters and smaller commuter style electric motorcycles probably make the most sense and have the best chance of being accepted by the masses.  If the prices are comparable to the ICE equivalent, even better.

Another thing that doesn't seem to mentioned that often are the environmental benefits of the electric motorcycle vs. internal combustion bike.  Also, I've noticed that pedestrians, people on horseback, cyclists, and the average person who isn't a "biker" appreciate the lack of noise with electric.

Until there's a significant breakthrough in battery technology, we're probably going to be looking at the same 100 mile-ish range that we've seen so far.

[Richard230]

And once there finally is a battery breakthrough, will it be passed on down to the two-wheel market, or will the be sucked up by the multi-billion dollar auto industry?  My guess is that motorcycles will get the leftovers. 

[sunchaser]

You're probably right.  The automotive industry will likely see the new technology first, but that might night be a bad thing.  Electric cars will have far more of a positive impact on the environment than electric motorcycles here in the United States.  For the most part, motorcycles in this country are just recreational vehicles. 

[EV promise]

I'm curious, what sector of the bike market or traveling public do you all feel an electric motorcycle fits? I rode to work for 20 years on 125 honda type bikes, cheap and reliable. Easy to ride in all weather. Then switched to a bicycle followed by an e-bike for the last 20 years till my retirement. I did  8-10miles a day.  For leisure I owned various bikes from Ducati, Honda and Yamaha. Like most UK riders these did less than 800 miles a year, some did more. I rode to Spain & back on my 750ss Ducati. 2000mls.
The difficulty I see is the use factor for electric bikes. Not enough range to tour, too high a price and too delicate/heavy to use everyday in all weathers. So that leaves a 50ml blast out for a couple of hrs on a fine evening or weekend. However this market is taken care of by R1's, Fireblades, Ducati's and Triumph's. Newer Zero's and Energica's are trying to make moves into this market. Looking on Autotrader, there are 27 Zero bikes for sale, no Brammo or electric Victory bike. None over 3 years old!! Most are low mileage ex demo bikes.
I feel electric motorcycles are a niche product and will remain so. I have friends 20 to 30 miles away and also good local roads to enjoy, so my Brammo fills the niche for me at a price I was prepared to pay.  I'm happy!!

[Richard230]

I'm curious, what sector of the bike market or traveling public do you all feel an electric motorcycle fits? I rode to work for 20 years on 125 honda type bikes, cheap and reliable. Easy to ride in all weather. Then switched to a bicycle followed by an e-bike for the last 20 years till my retirement. I did  8-10miles a day.  For leisure I owned various bikes from Ducati, Honda and Yamaha. Like most UK riders these did less than 800 miles a year, some did more. I rode to Spain & back on my 750ss Ducati. 2000mls.
The difficulty I see is the use factor for electric bikes. Not enough range to tour, too high a price and too delicate/heavy to use everyday in all weathers. So that leaves a 50ml blast out for a couple of hrs on a fine evening or weekend. However this market is taken care of by R1's, Fireblades, Ducati's and Triumph's. Newer Zero's and Energica's are trying to make moves into this market. Looking on Autotrader, there are 27 Zero bikes for sale, no Brammo or electric Victory bike. None over 3 years old!! Most are low mileage ex demo bikes.
I feel electric motorcycles are a niche product and will remain so. I have friends 20 to 30 miles away and also good local roads to enjoy, so my Brammo fills the niche for me at a price I was prepared to pay.  I'm happy!!

I started riding electric motorcycles in 2009. The bike I rode had a range of only 20 miles, which was enough to get me to work, where I recharged via a 120V extension cord connected to the outlet under my desk, then out my window and into the port on my bike, which was parked on the walkway near my window. Riding a bicycle was not an option as I had nothing but hills between my home and work and not a bike lane in sight. And riding the bus would have taken two hours as it toured all over the county and required two transfers to get to work. Whereas riding my electric motorcycle only required a 20-minute commute and the cost of the commute was minimal.

Now that I am retired and have a much more capable Zero, I use that bike for local travel to visit relatives, perform shopping and doing other chores within a 50-mile radius that I used to do in my car.  If I want to ride for long distances, I ride one of my ICE motorcycles.

[EV promise]

I think you're right about the use/ distance. The terrain, urban environment and expected distance makes a big difference to a person's choices.. If I were commuting 40mile daily in traffic I would have bought an electric motorcycle sooner providing one was available. There are and have been many American brands so you have been very lucky. Entrepreneurs and startups. Nothing like that here in the uk. My cycling journey was along urban and semi urban roads (30 & 40mph) with cycle ways to avoid mixing with the traffic. I'd never heard of or seen an electric motorcycle until 3 years ago on a YouTube video. I looked to see where the nearest dealer was (120mls) and booked a test ride, and the rest is as they say history with a few hiccups.  I'm pleased with my choice, imported it unseen from Germany. However there are drawbacks, I have to carry the charger/cables as only the 50kW plus chargers have them attached, places you want to go to don't have chargers. Only supermarkets and council carparks.

[sunchaser]

I thought that Europe had more EV (car and motorcycle) options than what is available here in the United States?   Are the Chinese bikes from Evoke and other manufacturers sold there?  From what I've read, it sounds like EV adoption in Europe is much farther ahead than the U.S.  Sadly, we're still largely in denial about climate change.   

I live in an extremely rural area and bought an Enertia because I wanted to see what it was like to own an electric motorcycle.  It was also my first EV.  I knew that the bike wasn't exactly intended to be ridden on country roads in the middle of nowhere, but I was willing to deal with the limited range considering the price that I paid.  I loved the bike so much that I immediately sold two of my three ICE bikes and don't regret it at all.  As an added bonus, I charge it with solar most of the time, so the operating costs are super low compared to my former gas bikes that got 25-35 mpg running on premium gas.  Not the normal average for ICE motorcycle fuel economy I know.  It's unfortunate that ICE bikes are so inefficient considering their size an weight, but I know that a lot of that is related to aerodynamics.  I probably spend more money on chain lube than anything else.  I think that Brammo made the right move in 2009 when they created the Enertia.  They did the best they could with the battery technology that was available and made a very solid and efficient short distance vehicle.  Unfortunately the market just wasn't ready for an electric motorcycle.

In my area, people look at me like I'm riding a unicorn down the street when I drive by in the Enertia.  They've never seen an electric motorcycle before, or any EV other than a Tesla for that matter.  I've had conversations with several people about the bike and they've all been really positive about it.  Needless to say, the first questions are always about range and charging time.  Using a ten year old commuter bike like the Enertia with a 30 mile range may not be the best choice for promoting electric motorcycles to the uninformed general public.  At least it gets the conversation about EVs started.

In my opinion, with the current prices and state of battery technology, electric motorcycle manufacturers might find more interest if they were to offer more commuter type bikes like the CSC City Slicker, upcoming Sondors Metacycle and electric scooters.  That's where a two-wheeled electric vehicle can really be practical.  Don't get me wrong, I think that bikes like the Livewire, Energica, Zero and others are great, and I would love to own any of those.  Unfortunately the higher prices of these models are a major barrier to the average motorcycle buyer.  However, it's also good to have aspirational products available to showcase what is possible. 

From an environmental standpoint, the short distance commuter type of electric motorcycle might have a more positive impact.  I think that there's a chance that the potential Honda Grom and Monkey buyer might be tempted to give something like the CSC City Slicker a chance if they were more widely available.  For me, the nearest dealer that offers any kind of electric motorcycle is 3 to 5 hours away.  Not at all practical for parts and service.  There were one or two dealers that carried Zero for awhile, but they stopped due to lack of demand.  Definitely a shame.

[HadesOmega]

Yah its tough there's not that many choices here.  Every region is different but what we have in the SF Bay Area is Zero, Energica, Harley Davidson or Livewire, and BMW I guess.  If you wanted to order by mail you can get a Sur Ron or CSC scooters/motorcycles.  The Sur Ron is pretty simple to work on so I don't really need a dealer or service center. 

But you can bet if you had something go wrong with a Zero, Energica, or Harley you probably need to take them someplace that specializes in them.  Hopefully in the future electric motorcycles become more universal.  A lot of the electric bikes use proprietary or very hard to find parts.  Like good luck finding a Brammo PCB or computer to diagnose faults.  They should be using OBD so you can diagnose faults like you do in automobiles.