Author Topic: problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.  (Read 2547 times)

firebourn

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problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.
« on: November 26, 2011, 02:27:54 AM »
This is an article that was written by MSNBC about the volt.

WASHINGTON — New fires involving the lithium-ion batteries in General Motors Co.'s Chevrolet Volt have prompted an investigation to assess the risk of fire in the electric car after a serious crash, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said Friday.
One Volt battery pack that was being closely monitored following a government crash test caught fire Thursday, the safety administration said in a statement. Another recently crash-tested battery emitted smoke and sparks, the statement said.
GM, which was informed of the investigation on Friday, said in a statement that the Volt "is safe and does not present undue risk as part of normal operation or immediately after a severe crash."
The latest fires are in addition to a battery fire in a crash-tested Volt six months ago.
NHTSA learned of a possible fire risk involving damaged Volt batteries when a fire erupted in a Volt that was being stored in a parking lot of a test facility in Burlington, Wis. The fire was severe enough to cause several other vehicles parked nearby to catch fire as well.
The car had been subjected to a side-impact crash test more than three weeks earlier, on May 12, during which the battery was punctured and its coolant line ruptured.
Last week's tests of three battery packs were designed to replicate the May test. In that test, the Volt was subjected to a simulated side-impact collision into a narrow object like a tree or pole followed by a rollover, the agency said.
The first battery tested last week didn't catch fire. But a battery test on Nov. 17 initially experienced a temporary temperature increase, and on Thursday caught fire while being monitored. Another battery tested on Nov. 18, which was rotated 180 degrees within hours after the test, began to smoke and emit sparks shortly after the rotation.
The tests were conducted by NHTSA and the Energy and Defense departments at a defense facility near Hampton Roads, Va.
So far, no fires have been reported in Volts involved in roadway crashes, NHTSA said. More than 5,000 of the vehicles have been sold.

It's too soon to tell whether the investigation will lead to a recall of any vehicles or parts, but the government will ensure consumers are informed promptly if that occurs, the agency said.
With its OnStar safety communications systems a part of the car, "GM knows real time about any crash significant enough to potentially compromise battery integrity," the automaker said. "Since July, GM has implemented a post-crash protocol that includes the depowering of the battery after a severe crash, returning the battery to a safe and low-powered state."
Electric vehicles are critical to President Barack Obama's plans to reduce U.S. dependence on foreign oil. He has called for putting 1 million of the vehicles on the road by 2015.
The Volt and Nissan's Leaf, with more than 8,000 cars on the road in the U.S., are among the first mass-marketed plug-in electric cars. They went on sale in the 2011 model year. Other automakers are also working on electric vehicles.
Safety testing hasn't raised concerns about electric vehicles other than the Volt, NHTSA said. But the agency is asking manufacturers who have electric cars on the market, or who plan to introduce electric vehicles in the near future, for more detailed information on their battery testing as well as what procedures they have established for discharging and handling batteries, including recommendations for reducing fire risks.
"NHTSA continues to believe that electric vehicles have incredible potential to save consumers money at the pump, help protect the environment, create jobs and strengthen national security by reducing our dependence on oil," the agency said.
After the first battery fire, GM officials complained that NHTSA did not drain the battery of energy as called for under the automaker's crash procedures. NHTSA normally drains fuel from gasoline-powered cars after crash tests, they said.
Lithium-ion batteries, which are rechargeable, have been the subject of several recalls of consumer electronics. Millions of laptop batteries made by Sony Corp. for Apple Inc., Dell Inc., Lenovo Group Ltd. and other PC makers were recalled in 2006 and 2007 after it was discovered that they could overheat and ignite.
The Federal Aviation Administration issued a warning to airlines about the potential for fires in cargo containing lithium-ion and non-rechargeable lithium metal batteries after a United Parcel Service plane crashed near Dubai last year, killing both pilots. The plane, which was on fire, was carrying thousands of lithium batteries.
Incorrectly packaged, damaged or overheated batteries can catch fire, the FAA said. Fires involving lithium-ion batteries can reach 1,100 degrees, close to the melting point of aluminum, a key material in airplane construction. Lithium-metal battery fires are far hotter, capable of reaching 4,000 degrees.
GM and NHTSA have pointed out that cars with gasoline-powered engines are susceptible to fires after a crash.
In the event of a crash, NHTSA's advice to consumers is to do the same thing they would do in a gasoline-powered car — get out of the vehicle and move a safe distance away. The agency also recommends against storing a severely damaged electric car in a garage or near other vehicles.

protomech

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Re: problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2011, 11:58:32 PM »
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860

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Re: problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2011, 01:48:16 PM »
200,000 gas vehicles light on fire every year, because they are stuffed full of a high amounts of energy required to transport heavy objects at high speeds.  EV's are also stuffed full of high amounts of energy that are required to transport heavy objects at high speeds.

Physics MANDATES that when large amounts of energy is released, it will generate heat and light.  Physics MANDATES that high amounts of energy are required to transport heavy objects at high speeds.

As long as we want to transport heavy objects at high speeds, there will continue to be fires, regardless of how that energy is stored.  That was true even back to the horse and buggy, when hay fires burned down barns.  But we don't see the press fear-mongering about the dangers of burning hay, even though hay can auto-ignite without even needing a flame present.

The biggest lesson from the Chevy Volt fire that happened 3 weeks after the car was side-impact crash tested, was to avoid laying around in the back seat of your Volt for 3 weeks after a major side-impact crash.  If you are still laying around your back seat 3 weeks after a major crash, you run the risk that you either may be burned in a fire, or you may be involuntarily committed to your local psychiatric hospital.    The second biggest lesson is not to allow yourself to be mongered into fear.

Brammofan

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Re: problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2011, 03:30:10 PM »
The biggest lesson from the Chevy Volt fire that happened 3 weeks after the car was side-impact crash tested, was to avoid laying around in the back seat of your Volt for 3 weeks after a major side-impact crash.  If you are still laying around your back seat 3 weeks after a major crash, you run the risk that you either may be burned in a fire, or you may be involuntarily committed to your local psychiatric hospital.    The second biggest lesson is not to allow yourself to be mongered into fear.

You, sir, get the trophy for today's best lessons!  :D
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protomech

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Re: problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2011, 04:32:26 PM »
ICE vehicles certainly end their lives in fire from time to time. Anyone who is overly smug about battery thermal runaway has both an axe to grind and has turned a certain cheery blind eye towards the gallons of highly flammable material that ride alongside most people in their commute.

However, I'll play devil's advocate for a minute:

1. I would wager that the overwhelming majority of ICE vehicle fires occur in old and poorly maintained vehicles. 200k sounds like a lot, but we're talking about an incident rate of less than a tenth of a percent of cars per year, predominantly involving old and poorly maintained vehicles. Ferraris aside, most people trust that a new vehicle will not suddenly self-immolate.

2. Generally speaking, ICE vehicles that burst into flames as a result of a crash do so almost immediately. This is obviously bad if you happen to be sitting in the vehicle in question, but it also brings a certain finality. Should you be worried that a fender bender you had a month ago, a year ago, could lead to a fire? What about the time you low-sided your electric bike at 40 mph and had to replace most of the plastics? Is it safe to park inside the garage now? These events will just feed FUD spread by EV opponents - and they have some justification.

Bottom line, battery thermal failures are unacceptable. People have become accustomed to the risks inherent in ICE vehicles. Pure BEVs may be safer overall, but any new risk (legitimate or not) will hinder the widespread adoption of EVs.
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860

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Re: problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2011, 05:59:47 PM »
protomech --  I agree that anyone who pretends that the massive amount of energy they ride alongside everyday isn't dangerous when that energy is released, is living life blindfolded.  That is going to be true for both gas and EV's.

By all means, there need to be procedures put into place to check and to test EV batteries after an accident to ensure they were not damaged.  I'm sure there are established tests already, something like a load test, a fast charge/discharge temperature test, and measuring voltage and resistance, etc.  But the battery in question was observed to have physical damage to it at the time of the accident, and was observed to be leaking battery coolant fluid.  So it isn't a question of hidden damage.  The battery pack was known to have a nasty hole in it, so in this case it was obvious there was a problem, and it wasn't a hidden problem.  I really doubt there is going to be a huge problem with hidden latent damage in batteries causing fires, any more than hidden electrical wiring damage, or fuel system leaks causing fires in gas cars after shoddy repairs.

The difference between this and a gas car is that if NHTSA crashed wrecked a gas car, and there was a hole in it's energy source, nobody would have been dumb enough to leave it sitting around dripping gas for 3 weeks because that would obviously be a huge safety hazard.  So there are things people definitely need to learn about batteries, like if there is a big nasty hole in it and the battery is full of electrical charge, you can't just ignore it.  Battery thermal failures are real, just like burning gas tanks are real, and neither is going away.  Large amounts of energy cannot be stored without the real danger of that energy being released in an uncontrolled way.  That's just physics.

What has to be learned is the specific procedures for handling EV's in a wreck, just like a decade ago people had to learn how to handle Hybrid batteries in a wreck.  We've had plenty of Hybrids wrecked since then, so there shouldn't be a problem with learning how to handle EV's in a wreck either.  It's a question of learning that just like the energy stored in gasoline, the energy stored in batteries is potentially dangerous, and needs to be handled with respect.  This is yet another inherent danger we accept in our daily lives because we educate ourselves on how to mitigate those dangers.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 06:11:35 PM by 1416 »

Richard230

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Re: problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2011, 06:33:46 PM »
Didn't the Ford Pinto have an issue with exploding gas tanks when hit from the rear?   :o  Whether you are dealing with gasoline or batteries, you still have to protect them as much as possible from damage during a crash. It might take a little time before protecting batteries from crash damage is figured out by engineers.

I might add that Brammo looks to have done a good job of protecting their batteries from crash damage in both the Enertia and the Empulse.
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Shinysideup

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Re: problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2011, 10:25:18 PM »
I might add that Brammo looks to have done a good job of protecting their batteries from crash damage in both the Enertia and the Empulse.

I might add (given the context of this website which generally has little to to with Chevy Volts) that if you are on an Enertia or and Empulse when it crashes, whether Brammo did a good job of protecting their batteries is, quite likely, the least  of your worries!

And I fully agree an EV industry-wide standard for post-crash battery tests should be put in place.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 12:51:35 AM by Shinysideup »

860

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Re: problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2011, 02:42:51 AM »
...if you are on an Enertia or and Empulse when it crashes, whether Brammo did a good job of protecting their batteries is, quite likely, the least  of your worries!


Good point.  And very apt from someone going by "Shinysideup"...    ;D

Richard230

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Re: problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2011, 05:51:05 PM »
I see that the AP is reporting today that GM "is offering free loaner vehicles to owners worried about their electric cars catching fire".  I wonder what an owner of a Volt is supposed to do with a "free loaner"?  Are they supposed to drive the loaner until the NHTSA says the Volt is safe.   ???  No mention is made regarding what model car would be offered to the Volt owner.  It all sounds kind of strange to me.   ::)

The AP article states: GM says that the Volt is safe, but it will contact the 5,000 Volt owners in the U.S. to reassure them.  It will offer the loaners to ensure owners are satisfied and confident in their purchase.

The AP article concludes with a summary of NHTSA's recent battery fire and smoke announcement.

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protomech

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Re: problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2011, 06:22:58 PM »
It is odd. Maybe more of a PR move than anything else. Or GM is fearful of a Toyota-style witch hunt.

However, it does give rise to a slew of terrible/awesome headlines once the loaners are returned.

"NHTSA declares Chevy Volt safe; owners Re-Volted"

"GM Reports 100% of Early Adopters Re-Volted"

etc : )
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Brammofan

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Re: problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2011, 09:42:37 AM »
I'm a little concerned about the safety of my Enertia's batteries.  I wonder if Brammo would consider giving me a loaner until further testing assured me that I'm safe.  If so, I would like a Triumph Street Triple R.
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protomech

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Re: problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2011, 10:19:21 AM »
I'll volunteer to hang onto your Enertia for testing. Of the batteries.

You know, have to make sure they're healthy.
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Brammofan

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Re: problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2011, 09:40:27 AM »
Here's another interesting article about the risk of fire of the Chevy Volt batteries.
http://gm-volt.com/2011/12/01/evaluating-the-risk-of-fire-in-a-chevy-volt/

I'm not going to extract the whole article and post it here - copyright issues, but I urge you all to go there and read it.
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FreepZ

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Re: problems with the chevy volt. please spread the word.
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2011, 01:01:50 PM »
Quote
At 16 kwh, a fully charged Volt battery contains the stored energy of only a half gallon of gasoline.

I've heard something similar from Tesla -- that the energy stored in their fully charged battery is less than what is in 3 gallons of gasoline.

That doesn't seem like a whole lot, but I don't think that looking at the electrical energy stored in the battery is an accurate measure the energy in the battery. The battery contains lithium, which when exposed to water has an exothermic reation.



It's sort of like taking a bag of gunpowder and using it as a counter-weight. Sure, the potential energy that you get from raising the bag is small, but if you ignite the powder, you get a lot more energy out of the system. :o

I'm not saying that lithium is gunpowder, but I am trying to show that there are different ways to get energy out of your system, and the energy that can be produced from a lithium+water reaction could be a lot more than what you get when you discharge a fully charged battery.

Another example is hydrogen. You can oxidise it (H+H+O => H2O (water) + Energy), but you can get even more energy if you fuse it into Helium! Of course, you need some very special conditions to fuse hydrogen. :P

I am a bit surprised that I haven't seen anyone discuss this particualr angle about the potential cause of the fire. Perhaps I am completely wrong about this, and the lithium in the battery is in a form that cannot react with water. ??? Would anyone care to comment?
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