Author Topic: J1772?  (Read 8674 times)

oobflyer

  • Enertia Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 73
    • View Profile
Re: J1772?
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2012, 11:19:08 PM »
In the comments section at the end of this post on ashpaltandrubber.com BrammoBrian finally spills the beans on the J1772 charging:

Quote
The 2012 Empulse will incorporate a J1772 charging outlet which will allow for both Level 1 (120Vac household) and Level 2 (220Vac single phase)charging. The charge time on Level 2 will be approximately 3.5 hours.

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/brammo-empulse-testing-six-speed-gearbox/

FreepZ

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 776
    • View Profile
    • Empulse Experience
    • Email
Re: J1772?
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2012, 09:17:32 AM »
Thanks for the link oobflyer. J1772 on the Empulse is fantastic news!

There's a discussion going on about that in the Off Topic section.

Empulse will have J1772! Woo!
Richard #935 #595 #44

2Slow4u

  • Enertia Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: J1772?
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2012, 02:46:06 PM »
This is Great! Now I can fill up at work without having to steal my own outlet.

protomech

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1987
    • View Profile
    • ProtoBlog
Re: J1772?
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2012, 02:46:34 PM »
Home Depot is selling a $800 J1772 charging station. It's a 30A station so it will scale up to work with the 6kw chargers in the newer EVs (Coda, Focus EV).

http://www.homedepot.com/buy/electric-vehicle-charging-station-248150.html

And Lowes has a $1000 J1772 30A station that can be mounted indoors or outdoors.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_107343-76863-EVWSWBC-CP01_0__

These stations are still overpriced, they honestly should be down in the $200-300 range. As they start to ship in higher volumes prices should drop substantially.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 02:53:39 PM by protomech »
1999 Honda VFR800i | 2014 Zero SR
Check out who's near you on frodus's EV owner map!
http://protomech.wordpress.com/

Gavin

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 2652
    • View Profile
    • Sol Power.  BrammoBlog
Re: J1772?
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2012, 02:51:10 PM »
Yeah, when we put in our swimming pool we also updated our electrical box (went from 100A box to 200A)...At the time I had them run new 30 amp wire from the box to my garage...that outlet is just sitting there waiting for something like this...

Now the question...J1772 on the Empulse....what about the Enertia Plus?

Gavin

protomech

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1987
    • View Profile
    • ProtoBlog
Re: J1772?
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2012, 02:59:21 PM »
Probably not if Brammo is trying to hit a $9000 price point with the Enertia Plus.

I expect the Zeros will pick up J1772 next year, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Brammo update the Enertia Plus sooner or later to J1772.
1999 Honda VFR800i | 2014 Zero SR
Check out who's near you on frodus's EV owner map!
http://protomech.wordpress.com/

Gavin

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 2652
    • View Profile
    • Sol Power.  BrammoBlog
Re: J1772?
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2012, 03:25:57 PM »
Yeah....plus if/when I get a J1772 plug it will likely be for an electric car...a standard outlet still works fine at charging the Enertia...the Plus, though twice the time, will still be fine to charge at 110 overnight.

Gavin

Virtually Yours

  • Brammoholic
  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 277
    • View Profile
Re: J1772?
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2012, 10:33:17 AM »
I'm interested in this piece of equipment for several applications.
Would someone be so kind as to look at the specs of this solar power generator and tell me if this would be sufficient enough to charge the Empulse?
http://www.solarstik.com/sites/default/files/solar_stiktm_recon_pak_li_spec_sheet.pdf
Actually Mine,
#42
Empluse R

protomech

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1987
    • View Profile
    • ProtoBlog
Re: J1772?
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2012, 12:32:10 PM »
Short answer: No. The power produces too little energy per day to charge the Empulse for anything but very light use, and the inverter does not produce enough power to charge the Empulse without blowing a fuse.


Energy
The two panels together put out about 120W under direct sunlight. The best case scenario is good summer day in an excellent solar area like southern california where you might get 8-10 hours of direct sunlight, giving you as much as 1-1.2 kWh of stored energy. Since the built-in battery has only a 0.6 kWh storage capacity, you lose anything over that amount if you do not draw out while charging. 1.2 kWh will charge the Empulse for about 10 miles of moderate riding. In the winter time you would have enough energy to take you 2-3 miles at best.

Power
The powerpak has 12V DC and USB outputs. There is an accessory DC to AC inverter rated at 180 W continuous and 300 W surge. Since the Empulse will probably pull up to 10-15A on 120V or 1.2-1.8 kW, it will blow the inverter's fuse unless it can be dialed back down.


The PowerPak looks pretty rugged, it's a nice off-grid portable solution for low-power devices like laptops, small refrigeraters, small area lighting. It is way undersized for vehicle charging, and looking at their prices you'll pay out the nose for a vehicle-sized power source.

The cheapest way to build solar is to choose a grid-tied fixed solar installation. Parts costs are $2-3 per watt, installation can be much higher. Here in North AL we receive 4.5 hours-equivalent of sunlight averaged over the year. The Empulse needs around 120 Wh per "moderate" mile to charge, so I need about 27W of panel per mile I plan to charge per day. If I figure 30 miles per day is my reasonable distance, then I need about 700W (3x 230W) of panels which will run about $2000 + installation. In this case I'm using the power grid as the storage device, I pump energy in during the day as the panels operate and pull energy out when I plug in the bike. I am SOL if I lose grid power, which we did for about four days last April when tornadoes rolled through.

Next down the list is grid-tied solar with battery backup. If I lose grid-power then it will switch over to a battery backup; batteries will be charged during the day. 30 miles is about 3.6 kWh to charge, I would probably overbuild to power the house as well. A 240V off-grid system with 3 kW (options to expand to 4.4 kW) system output and 9.6 kWh of battery backup is available from wholesalesolar.com for about $7k.

Next down on the list is portable solar with battery backup, essentially a portable power grid. This is the solarstik kits, and they range from expensive to horrendously expensive.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 01:25:27 PM by protomech »
1999 Honda VFR800i | 2014 Zero SR
Check out who's near you on frodus's EV owner map!
http://protomech.wordpress.com/

FreepZ

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 776
    • View Profile
    • Empulse Experience
    • Email
Re: J1772?
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2012, 01:15:18 PM »
It might work.
"Breakers: 100 amp Master circuit breaker / 50 amp load circuit breaker / 25 amp charge circuit breaker (AC & DC)"
Which implies to me that the battery pack can manage more than 12-15 amps that the bike will take.
Disclaimer: I'm no electrical engineer, so I may be blowing smoke here.

If it did work, it would be very slow.
"The Recon Pak can generate up to 0.9 kW-h of electrical energy in just a few hours with good sunlight."
The Empulse uses about 1 kW-h to travel 10 miles, so (assuming that "few" means about 3) your charge rate is going to be about 3 miles per hour (or less). I.e. it would be faster to walk!
Also you might have to charge the Power Pak first, and then charge the bike from the Power Pak.

Once you get your bike, it would be interesting if you could get a demo and just try it out. Even if it's very slow, that setup may be just the thing for going camping, provided that you don't intend on traveling more than 10h x 3mph = 30 miles per day (and that's being optimistic).
Richard #935 #595 #44

Virtually Yours

  • Brammoholic
  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 277
    • View Profile
Re: J1772?
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2012, 08:21:21 AM »
Thanks for taking the time to look over that...
I came across these products with the intention of a having something in the event of a hurricane, camping trip, tailgating, and wondered which product would be sufficient enough to charge the bike (even if it is a slow charge). I believe you can have up to 5 Flexi-panels with a couple of the different models. Solar Stik is somewhat expensive but may be reasonable if you get a demo model or clearance item. Besides, when I was a teen I seem to remember some government propaganda about "Buy American". So now when shopping for big items like the Solar Stik, Empulse, Model S, "Buy American" seems to be the patriotic thing to do in a bad economy and is definitely part of my decision process.
Actually Mine,
#42
Empluse R

EmpulseRider

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 893
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: J1772?
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2012, 01:37:38 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to look over that...
I came across these products with the intention of a having something in the event of a hurricane, camping trip, tailgating, and wondered which product would be sufficient enough to charge the bike (even if it is a slow charge). I believe you can have up to 5 Flexi-panels with a couple of the different models. Solar Stik is somewhat expensive but may be reasonable if you get a demo model or clearance item. Besides, when I was a teen I seem to remember some government propaganda about "Buy American". So now when shopping for big items like the Solar Stik, Empulse, Model S, "Buy American" seems to be the patriotic thing to do in a bad economy and is definitely part of my decision process.

Over the past few years I have become a very buy american type of guy. I am glad the Empulse is being built in the states too... will go nicely with my Tesla Model X that we plan on buying, but right now, it will go nicely with my Cruze Eco. :) BTW, if your ever looking into a grid tied system, why not check out my solar pv calculator: http://www.empulsebuyer.com/pvCalculator.php

Shameless plug, i know... not that I make any money on this stuff.

Brammofan

  • Administrator
  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 3257
  • Following the momentum of Enertia
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Re: J1772?
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2012, 05:32:59 PM »
You are always everyone welcome to plug your site, Empulsebuyer. :)

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk (which explains the incorrect autocorrect)
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 06:07:09 PM by Brammofan »
The Brammoforum Wiki is still active: http://www.brammoforum.com/wiki

protomech

  • Brammovangelist
  • *****
  • Posts: 1987
    • View Profile
    • ProtoBlog
Re: J1772?
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2012, 04:45:26 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to look over that...
I came across these products with the intention of a having something in the event of a hurricane, camping trip, tailgating, and wondered which product would be sufficient enough to charge the bike (even if it is a slow charge). I believe you can have up to 5 Flexi-panels with a couple of the different models. Solar Stik is somewhat expensive but may be reasonable if you get a demo model or clearance item. Besides, when I was a teen I seem to remember some government propaganda about "Buy American". So now when shopping for big items like the Solar Stik, Empulse, Model S, "Buy American" seems to be the patriotic thing to do in a bad economy and is definitely part of my decision process.

rambling ahead

Honestly, the recon pak looks pretty cool. It's rugged and self-contained, and for low-power or intermittent usage it's probably a better choice than a generator. Certainly much quieter and cleaner, and there's no need to resupply fuel - perfect for long stationary camping trips, and definitely better than nothing in case of a true emergency where fuel is unavailable.

However, consider:
* you need a lot of space to spread out the solar panels. Panels are approximately 5' x 3.5', times five.
* the total energy available per day is heavily dependent upon clear sunny conditions, and depending on location may be substantially lower during the winter.
* total energy storage is approximately 15% what you can generate on a nice sunny summer day with five panels. more power paks can help, of course, but add weight and cost. chances are good that you won't be able to store all the energy you can produce in a good day.
* solarstik seems to be targeting the military. their products are going to be expensive.

With a 50A breaker, you can probably pull up to a maximum of 500W safely from the box.

If you connect 3 more panels then you probably can pull in 300W in direct sunlight. The charging circuit has a 50A breaker, it likely charges the battery at 14V or so. With 5 panels attached you should be able to charge the battery in approximately 90 minutes.

Suppose you can hook up the 5 panels and a 500W inverter to the power pak.

With a full battery and the panels fully operational, you can pull 500W (300W panels + 200-250W battery) from the inverter for about 2-2.5 hours before the battery is fully discharged.

With a half-discharged battery and the panels fully operational, you can pull ~250W from the inverter while maintaining battery charge. Less power and you can charge the battery at the same time.

With a full battery and clouds or at night, you can pull 500W from the inverter (500-550W battery) for about an hour until the battery is fully discharged.

Supposing 5 hours of daylight averaged over the day, that gives you 2.5 kWh of AC power in total for the day. More in the summer, maybe 3.5-4.0 kWh. Unless the day is cloudy, in which case you might only have 1.0 kWh or less of recoverable energy during the day.


Consider the generator alternative:
http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu2000i

1600W continuous, 4 hours @ continuous load, 1.1 gal capacity.

Empulse 10 should take around 12 kWh to fully charge in approximately 10 hours (1200W), probably needs around 2.5 gallons of gas (giving you, amusingly, around 40 mpg).


If your riding needs are 20-30 miles per day AND you can current-limit the Empulse charger to not blow the breaker, in the summer you could probably charge the Empulse in about 6-7 hours from the Recon Pak with 5 panels and still have a bit of energy left to run other applications. On a cloudy day or during the winter, you won't be doing much riding if any.

Vs the generator, which can charge 20-30 miles worth of riding in about 3 hours using less than a gallon of gas.

Generators aren't always the best answer, but for charging an electric motorcycle away from the power grid in a temporary location with a reliable supply of fuel they're probably the best choice.

For lower power applications -- such as charging an electric bike or operating a couple laptops, lighting, electric stove, etc -- the recon pak could be a better choice.


I like the recon pak, a rugged transporter inverter / panel hookup package is pretty cool. What would be really cool would be to use the bike's battery as the storage device. Charge during the day, supply power at night. Problem is you take your power supply (to even out fluctuations in solar output) with you if you leave. Imagine holding panels and inverters in saddlebags, ready to respond to emergencies. Pretty cool IMO. Vehicle to grid technology is still being sorted out, but it's got a promising future.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 04:49:30 PM by protomech »
1999 Honda VFR800i | 2014 Zero SR
Check out who's near you on frodus's EV owner map!
http://protomech.wordpress.com/