Empulse haters

[1lesscar]

I don't understand why the children these days don't believe in the technology. Is it because it is soo different they are afraid of it. They still think ICE is the best for motorcycles. Do they love the sound or what? I am having a hard time talking sense into them. The Empulse R is here, in their faces and they make fun of it, like they never heard of it and won't give it a chance. 

[Brammofan]

It's a rabbit hole you don't want to jump into unless you have some goal in mind, like, "If I can convince ONE person to change their mind, then it's worth it."  I've seen so many haters over the two years I've owned my Enertia, and I'm sure I haven't convinced a single one to change their minds.  It used to bother me, but it doesn't anymore.  Eventually, some day, the world will change and they will too, or they will be left behind.  Their reasons are their own - My favorite: "It doesn't make any sound, so it doesn't have a soul."   

[EmpulseRider]

Case in point... Engadget's post about the Empulse earlier today. I have been working on these people, but you have to just ignore the folks that just want to hear themselves complain... they are usually easy to spot though.

[FreepZ]

http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/19/brammo-empulse-electric-motorcycle-six-speed/

The article itself is rather benign, but the comments section is full of the mobs of uninformed or misinformed. Nice job fighting off the crazies, EB.

[nshortri]

I don't understand why the children these days don't believe in the technology. Is it because it is soo different they are afraid of it. They still think ICE is the best for motorcycles. Do they love the sound or what? I am having a hard time talking sense into them. The Empulse R is here, in their faces and they make fun of it, like they never heard of it and won't give it a chance. 

I am 22 years old and I had a cbr600rr for 2 years. I sold it last August and It was an awesome bike! I had it dyno tuned and got the baddest exhaust ever, which was a two brothers exhaust pipe. I spent over roughly 12 grand on it. I thought it was the coolest thing in the world, although, my perspective changed while in college. I am majoring in biology and going to apply pharmacy school next year. I learned a lot in my required science courses that the cars are polluting the environment. That was enough to convince me that maybe we should change before it is too late. I told myself that electric is the way to go, although, this alone doesn't convince people. Some critics that I know have a chemistry degree are actually saying that the electric car's batteries are contributing more in pollution than gas vehicles. In my head, I thought this is ridiculous. But then I thought more about it and I always wondered, what are we going to do with the batteries when it goes out in ten years or so? Can we recycle it? Is it possible? Or is this just another chemist making up stuff that was invented by the oil companies?

[flar]

I am 22 years old and I had a cbr600rr for 2 years. I sold it last August and It was an awesome bike! I had it dyno tuned and got the baddest exhaust ever, which was a two brothers exhaust pipe. I spent over roughly 12 grand on it. I thought it was the coolest thing in the world, although, my perspective changed while in college. I am majoring in biology and going to apply pharmacy school next year. I learned a lot in my required science courses that the cars are polluting the environment. That was enough to convince me that maybe we should change before it is too late. I told myself that electric is the way to go, although, this alone doesn't convince people. Some critics that I know have a chemistry degree are actually saying that the electric car's batteries are contributing more in pollution than gas vehicles. In my head, I thought this is ridiculous. But then I thought more about it and I always wondered, what are we going to do with the batteries when it goes out in ten years or so? Can we recycle it? Is it possible? Or is this just another chemist making up stuff that was invented by the oil companies?

The Tesla plan for dying batteries, and I'm sure this can apply to electric motorcycle battery packs as well, is to repurpose them as storage ballast for clean energy farms that have the problem that they produce electricity independently from demand and so they can either let it go to waste or store it for a light day...

[FreepZ]

Some critics that I know have a chemistry degree are actually saying that the electric car's batteries are contributing more in pollution than gas vehicles. In my head, I thought this is ridiculous. But then I thought more about it and I always wondered, what are we going to do with the batteries when it goes out in ten years or so? Can we recycle it? Is it possible? Or is this just another chemist making up stuff that was invented by the oil companies?

It is good to see that people are talking about conserving he environment -- after all, it would be very foolish if we replaced one problem with an even worse problem.

Yes, many batteries are very bad for the environment, but not all batteries. According to this and this website, they say that lead acid batteries are the most harmful to the environment, nickle based are better, and lithium based are the least harmful.

All modern electric vehicle companies us lithium these days mostly because they need the high energy density that only lithium has been able to provide, but also because the recognize the need to have a battery that is not going to pollute the environment when it has outlived its usefulness.

The useful life for lithium car batteries may be quite a long time, because after they have spent many years inside the car, they they can spend even more time in second life uses. (flar pointed out Tesla's plan.)

Furthermore, it is possible to make batteries that are completely non-toxic. The CEO of BYD (a company that specializes in battery research) proved this by drinking battery liquid.

Yes, lead acid batteries are bad for the environment, but many people are aware of that and there are solutions available that are a lot more environmentally safe. Saying that the pollution produced by modern EVs (specifically their batteries) is worse than that produced by regular ICE cars (which, incidentally, all have a cheap and toxic lead acid battery) shows a lack of understanding of the current state of battery technology.

[protomech]

You know the saying, "don't argue with a fool, they'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience"? Yeah. Sometime the best course is to present information, answer questions from interested folks, and let the crazies go rant off in a corner : P [small]Not that I always follow that advice..[/small]

@nshortri Generally speaking, lithium batteries are almost entirely recyclable. The lithium salts are non-toxic and if the battery is not worth reusing in a secondary application (such as grid storage) then it can be recycled or disposed of in a landfill. You aren't allowed to throw away most other types of batteries, including lead-acid and most primary cells.

Cars generally produce more CO2 (due to consuming / combusting more gasoline), but ICE motorcycles produce FAR greater levels of other pollutants (NOx, particulate matter, etc) due to the EPA's hands-off regulatory stance. I'm in general a fan of limited government interference in markets, but pollution control is a fantastic example of "tragedy of the commons" .. and modern car pollution vs modern motorcycle absolutely demonstrates this.

[2Slow4u]

Promotech's got it right.

First off the batteries at the end of their useful life in a transportation vehicles are not dead, they just have a reduced capacity. Most packs are limited to 80% DoD for EV use, and even less for HEV. Once the pack can no longer hold 80% of its original rated capacity (not usable or allowed usable) an owner would notice performance decreasing. This is the point where the consumer throws up their arms and says my battery has issues I want a new one! (reality is people will realize its not that big of a deal and keep driving for quite a bit longer on reduced range) As the model goes, the EV gets a fresh new battery, possibly with upgraded chemistry and the old battery then heads to its second life application. Second life applications are looking for cheap energy storage with high cycle life on shallow discharges. Lithium batterys to be more exact. They use these batteries until they are actually dead at which point the batteries are broken down back into their raw elements and recycled.

As far as car vs. motorcycle smog. Motorcycles are way worse due to near zero EPA regulation. You can also add all boats (before 2007 or 2008?), lawn mowers, snow mobiles, and anything else that's fun with no catalytic converter.

Now back to the haterade crowd. There are already EV bikes out there with way more power than an ICE could pack, but they are not production ready yet. As the performance trickles into the market, it will change peoples minds. Performance and run costs will sell the EV over any type of environmental adgenda.

[860]

Once the pack can no longer hold 80% of its original rated capacity (not usable or allowed usable) an owner would notice performance decreasing.

Is this really true for Lithium Ion batteries?  Because one of the super cool things I love about my lithium ion batteries for my power tools (hand held drills, saws, etc) is that they seem to have a really steady power output, right until they are out of juice and just stop.  It isn't like a Ni-cad battery where the tool runs slower and slower the less power there is in a battery.

I'm sort of expecting an experience more like my lithium ion tools, where power output won't change that much based upon charge and age and capacity.  I'm not expecting performance to change all that much,  I'm just expecting the battery indicator to show the battery gets used up faster, but the power at the throttle will remain the same.

I've done the math on my commute, and my worst case I can still get to work on just 50% battery capacity before I will have to do anything as drastic as replacing the battery.  And based upon 77 miles/charge mixed driving, and 1500 charge cycles to 80% depletion, I'll die of old age before I need to replace a battery.

[flar]

It might be fun to produce one of those "this is what X thinks Y does" Facebook meme pictures with boxes involving the anthropomorphism of engines.  What [X] thinks [Y] do:

X = ICE owner, IC engine, E engine, EV owner, the planet
Y = I, referring either to ICE engine or EV engine

Some suggestions for graphics - most ICE drivers think their engine simply provides thrust but does little else.  In reality the ICE engine is probably most focused on keeping the pistons spinning and only occasionally feels some power draw as some of the power is directed to other purposes.  Contrast with an EV engine where the engine literally only produces what is needed.  How to depict that disconnect in some cute pictures?  I'm guessing a picture of spinning pistons as the "What I think I do" for the ICE engine?

Another suggestion - driving needs a wide variety of power demands that are constantly shifting - Gas, coast, GasGasGas, brake, coast, maintain, coast, Gas, etc.  An ICE engine tends to just want to sit and spin at its optimal envelope and then have you drain as much excess as you can, but it is never asked to do that, so it kind of wants to see a "power request" graph that is a straight line, but what it gets from a driver is a ridiculously random sawtooth.  An EV engine tends to not care.  (Maybe "driver thinks ICE wants sawtooth", "ICE wants straight line", "driver thinks EV wants pegged power ", "EV wants driver to smile"?)

Another suggestion - ICE has a floor of "power consumed" and when the "power requested" changes then it will always have a large loss, plus some lag in terms of once you get it spinning and then let off, the power consumed will still be relatively high compared to idle.  Comparatively the EV's power consumed will track the power requested quite closely with only a small efficiency gap, even when you lift off at high RPMs.  Also, include negative values to represent regenerative braking capabilities.

Or - this one is more "showing results" than "showing why the results happen" and so is more argumentative than demonstrative, but say that the planet thinks ICE engines simply burn the oil right out of the ground with a small tube funneling through them to their drive wheels representing how much energy actually makes it to their end product.  It sees the EV at least harness most of that energy expenditure into a ballast, supplement it with other sources, then direct nearly 100% of the ballast into the drive wheels.

I'm not artist so I couldn't even begin to draw up any of those, but I thought I'd throw it out as a suggestion in case anyone wants to create a meme image to forward...

[protomech]

I'm sort of expecting an experience more like my lithium ion tools, where power output won't change that much based upon charge and age and capacity.  I'm not expecting performance to change all that much,  I'm just expecting the battery indicator to show the battery gets used up faster, but the power at the throttle will remain the same.

It depends how close they are to the C-rate limit.

Brammo has suggested that the 6.0 and 8.0 Empulse got nixed due to not being able to fully power the 40 kW motor, so it stands to reason that when the pack decays down to 8.0 kWh effective capacity that it probably will lose a bit of performance.

At least, that's how I think it would work : P

[2Slow4u]

The fun part of this dead battery model is when you are at 80% capacity based off original capacity, now you can discharge a true 100%. At that rate the battery will start degrading exponentially faster.

In reality, people won't be driving their bike into the ground every single ride, and that cycle count will last for longer than most people will ever ride this bike.

1500 cycles at 77 miles range (combined) is 115k miles, how many other street bikes can make it that long without some major work?

[Richard230]

Returning to EV haters for a second, I think that many motorcyclists really don't like change. That is why Harley Davidson does so well on the motorcycle market and has done very well for over 100 years.  I think there are many motorcycle riders that worry about the sport changing and maybe having their ability to ride eventually limited by the government and forced to only ride electric. I don't think that would happen in their lifetimes, but you know how fear is. It tends to obscure the facts and breed paranoia.

[protomech]

maybe having their ability to ride eventually limited by the government and forced to only ride electric.

Yeah, I think that's definitely the source of most of the anti-EV vitriol. These are generally the same "drill baby drill" people that don't understand that oil is globally priced, and domestic production would at most add a few percent to global oil production.. and take 3+ years to from project start to production.

"The gubmint / Obama makes the oil expensive" (and in fairness, there was a lot of anti-Bush rhetoric 4-5 years ago in the same vein) .. and ignoring that we're reaching farther and farther and farther to get what oil we can. We'll never run OUT of oil.. but the oil companies wouldn't undertake incredibly expensive and risky oil excavation projects if there was anything easier left to tap.