B40 fault B8 system fault

[KaFr]

Thank you very much for the published photos of the disassembled battery module and the data analysis.

It appears that the relative humidity was increasing mainly due to gas and/or liquid leakage from leaking or damaged cells. Finally, liquid leaked onto the number 5 module board, where it knocked out one of the module's temperature sensors and affected the function of its heater. Ingress of moisture from the outside environment is less likely because the batterypack is relatively well sealed.

The question is what caused the battery cell packaging to break. I think several factors play a role:
- insufficient space between cells for their volume increase during heating
- the inverted position could increase the pressure on the electrodes
- the closed and sealed space of the battery pack makes it impossible to vent the escaped gases to the outside

Unfortunately, I'm afraid this is the disease of all Victory Empulse TTs, which are doomed to the slow death of battery modules :-(

My Victory now has increased humidity in module 5. It maxed out at 67% last fall, now it's about 62%. After every several days of standing in the garage, I observe an increase in humidity in all modules by a few percent, after a short drive it will decrease again to the original values. I also occasionally smell a chemical smell in the garage from the module 5 area leaking out of the package.

Off topic:
Korbin, can you please take a picture of the label and the connector of the DC-DC converter?
I would like to find out if it is the same type as for the Brammo Enertia or not.

[Korbin Dallas]

posted dc-dc converter pics. They have the same part number and the same plug design. 2013 Brammo vs 2016 Victory.  That is a win
So even if you reduce the humidity you will eventually have a cell spill enough juice to ruin the circuit board. Is there a way to test each cell to see which ones are bad? Honestly the ones I took apart in module 7 I could not say for certain which one was the culprit or if all were bad. Is it possible to just have one cell on a bench and put it on a charge for an extended time and see if it leaks? The sight glass for the led light is threaded. could we thread on one of the silica dryers on there. They make them for the large plastic oil containers.

[new-brammo-guy]

I know of three of us with this very similar situation with our 2016 Victory Empulse TT's - are there more?

[Bike 1] HadesOmega: http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=4041.45
[Bike 2] Korbin Dallas (this thread)
[Bike 3] new-brammo-guy (me)

Some may have multiple issues, but main battery issues seems to be the leaking cells in Modules 5, 6 and/or 7 that drip onto the PCB and killed a temp sensor or two -> B40 fault (TOO HOT, TOO COLD, etc.). Slightly different sensors were killed, but all a temp sensor for a cell or PCB. I think in all of our cases:
-The bikes would have continued to run with the leaking - except that the temp sensor was eventually shorted by the leaks, which caused the fault.
-The cell voltages were good, so the only way to detect the leak is by looking at humidity values in the modules.

Our issues are all in the lower battery modules (Module 5, 6 and 7). The humidity increases over time in these modules, but in my case the humidity in Module 5/6/7 was not that high when PCB temp sensor was killed (Max ~70%). This tells me that death comes somewhat at random depending on where the chemicals drips. Eventually the chemicals hit one of the sensors. The higher the humidity with the bike still running, the better your luck!

So why do we all have issues in Module 5, 6 and 7 and not 1-4? KaFr's pointed out that these modules are upside down (while the upper modules are vertical) and the lower battery module has been discontinued (though the upper module is still available) - which may mean that the lower module has been replaced in a bunch of bikes: https://www.victoryparts.net/oemparts/a/vic/5678f7e087a86611bc5d14de/batteries-and-charging-system-battery-module-mntg

Did the Brammo (not Victory) bikes have the same issues - because their batteries are also upside down on the bottom row? Did the Victory Empulse have a different cell chemistry?

Here's one post showing a Brammo battery failure in Module 6:
https://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=4136.0

And another one in Module 7:
https://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=4000.15

Or is there some other non-battery chemical in the enclosure that leaked in Modules 5-7 but not 1-4 (e.g. sealant, different component like the DC/DC, etc.)?

I'm not sure if the heaters were to play because the heaters in Modules 1-4 are the same as Modules 5-7.

A note about my bike: About 4k miles and super-super clean. Always stored in a garage, never driven on wet pavement. I didn't push the bike that much either - just normal around town and countryside riding. It looks like a new bike but is now dead with the B40 error (and likely killed temp sensors on the PCB).

[KaFr]

Korbin,
thanks for the pics of the DC converter. Interestingly, on the label id an input voltage of 80V, while the Empulse battery has a higher voltage.

new-brammo-guy,
I know a few other Victory Empulse TT owners from Facebook who have had battery issues.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1495976887113548/

Is it possible to read from the data from Korbin what the battery temperature and state of charge were at the moment before the significant increase in humidity? The worst situation for battery cells (besides complete discharge) is generally when they remain fully charged for a long time and have a high temperature. The bag cells then increase their volume quite a lot and if they don't have enough space, the closure of the cell cover around the electrodes will tear.

[Korbin Dallas]

KaFr,
10/15/2021 5 mile trip battery at 85 % soc. modules 1-7 humidity 47-52-62-52-52-63-76 ambient temp 18C battery modules 25-26C
5 months later the next activity is on
3/25/2022 battery at 70 % soc module 1-7 humidity 61-63-73-62-67-75-88 ambient temp 12C battery modules 15-15 C
B40 error doesnt happen until 4 months later with humidity levels staying in upper 80 and 90 in module 7
7/19/2022 b 40 error

So best charge on the bike for storage over 5 month period but increased humidity from not warming the batteries?

[Korbin Dallas]

Hi, can you clean the electrolyte off the back of the board with warm soapy water and a toothbrush. Then let it dry. Board are coated so only the test points may be shorted. Have to see what you find.
Also I think I can see your boards are REV 01 etched into the back in a photo. Made for Victory with different data connections.
Modules are 4s10p instead of 9p, so more powerful than Brammo ones, hence the different layout.
Also I think the humidity sensor is a Honeywell HIH 4030-001.

What are your thoughts on this circuit board now after the wash?

[EV promise]

Hi,your both doing great works. I'd like to see the carbuncle around the heater contacts checked / scraped maybe to make sure there is no continuity on the back of the board between the pins.
From the 'service cable post' a working module circuit board must have a humidity below 90% if I read that right so I've added the datasheet for what I think is the humidity sensor. Is there any markings on it please. Hopefully this can be confirmed and the voltages at the pins checked with the board powered up.
Also I note there are items labeled F1-F16, could these be fuses and also need checking for continuity.
I'm not so sure there is a separate temperature sensor on the board, the 504 microprocessor has one built in. I'd be interested to hear others thoughts.

[new-brammo-guy]

KaFra asked: "Is it possible to read from the data from Korbin what the battery temperature and state of charge were at the moment before the significant increase in humidity?"

See attached plots for Korbin's data. Blue is the relative humidity in Module 7. Green is the temp or SoC for Module 7.

There's a decent chance temperature (especially at high SoC %) may be a contributor. My bike went into B40 after sitting for a few days in the hottest stretch (32 degrees C) with high humidity and about 95% SoC. Though the bike should be able to handle that - puzzling why they wouldn't have found this out with environmental testing. Maybe it's more of a flexing/cycling that takes years.

[new-brammo-guy]

And to add to the above, attached is the plot I posted earlier. The conclusion: the humidity in Module 7 increased after sitting for a while. This means that there was a slow drip that kept going when the bike was off. When the bike was turned back on, the humidity had increased over time. The longer it had sat, the more the humidity had increased.

[justinmkantor]

Did I miss how to download all the data from the bike?

[new-brammo-guy]

Hi Fishfearme172, yes - there are other posts on downloading the data from the USB drive under the seat. For example: https://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=4104.msg28461#msg28461

[Korbin Dallas]

I am just going to throw this out there for conversation..everybody has seen a battery in a car look like this photo. Is the battery bad? I think no. So here is the rabbit hole   What if that is happening to our batteries on the individual cells?  Now add humidity/condensation/ water ingress dripping from the top of the case( which would be bottom side as the battery is upside down) slowly over time creeping down over just some of the cell connections. I would think it would accelerate the process seen in the photo. Then as the water progresses it pools in the case as we saw in the original photos of the battery teardown causing the severe corrosion and high humidity especially in the #7 module now unfortunately in module 5 it happen to run down the circuit board and shorted the heater/temp probe connection on the backside. Causing the b8 failed temp probe battery too cold and heater inop? The individual cells i tested so far are showing full charge. I hope to get the rest of the module torn down and check charge on all cells. If we get to take apart another lower battery module and see the same areas of damage then that would help to confirm that it is not a cell failure But the result of moisture. Since the modules are built the same i would expect the water to drip in the same areas. Highly unlikely that cells in exactly the same area would fail. Please discuss my theory. By no means am i an expert.

[Korbin Dallas]

Follow up question.   What is the best way to clean the cell connections on our modules. Also is there anyway to test if the cell has been compromised and is indeed leaking electrolyte?

[EV promise]

I'm happy to go with your theory. On a lead acid battery you generally separate the lead from the terminal and poor boiling water over them to dissolve the verdigris. Then coat them with vaseline.
As a side note, pouch cells like to be compressed, so better to remake the pack to protect them. They're my thoughts.
Need to see b40 gone!!!

[Brammofan]

I thought dielectric grease or, better yet, battery terminal protector spray. That's what I use on my 66 Chevy pickup battery.

By the way, I have to say I'm fascinated with the trouble-shooting and discussion in these threads.  This forum has been pretty quiet lately and I was wondering if it was time to shut it down.  I think it's still necessary and helpful for some folks...like you.