System Fault B40 Error Bike Does not Run

[HadesOmega]

I just looked at the logs again like EV Promise was talking about module 5 is too cold, like -50C or F not sure what units it's in, I think it's celsius (edit yes it is it says (C)).  Also i didn't notice like a dummy the labels for the log file are on the first row haha I was just trying to read all the data by just looking at the values. 

Module 1 PCBA Temperature (C)   Module 2 PCBA Temperature (C)   Module 3 PCBA Temperature (C)   Module 4 PCBA Temperature (C)   Module 5 PCBA Temperature (C)   Module 6 PCBA Temperature (C)   Module 7 PCBA Temperature (C)
0   0   0   0   0   0   0
25   25   25   25   24   24   24
25   25   25   25   24   24   24
24   25   25   25   24   24   24
25   25   25   25   24   24   24
24   25   25   25   24   24   24
0   25   25   25   25   22   24
24   25   25   25   18   24   24
24   25   25   25   -50   24   24
24   25   25   25   -50   24   24
24   25   25   25   -50   24   24
24   25   25   25   -50   24   24
24   25   25   25   -50   24   24
24   25   25   25   -50   24   24
24   25   25   25   -50   24   24
24   25   25   25   -50   24   24
24   25   25   25   -50   24   24
24   25   25   25   -50   24   24


And your right about the humidity that corresponding module has a high humidity, so the B9 fault is related to this.  You can see M1 thru M4 are about 40% then M5 is about 88%, even M6 is around 74% and M7 is 53%

M1 Relative Humidity (%)   M2 Relative Humidity (%)   M3 Relative Humidity (%)   M4 Relative Humidity (%)   M5 Relative Humidity (%)   M6 Relative Humidity (%)   M7 Relative Humidity (%)
                  
42   41   44   44   88   74   53
41   40   44   44   88   74   53
42   41   44   44   89   74   54
41   41   44   44   88   74   53
41   41   44   44   88   74   53
27   41   41   44   43   88   74
42   41   44   44   89   74   54
41   41   44   44   88   74   54
41   41   44   44   88   74   53
42   41   44   44   89   74   53
41   41   44   44   88   74   53
42   41   44   44   88   74   54
42   41   44   43   89   74   54
41   41   42   43   88   74   54

Thanks for pointing that out.  Now we've sort of pin pointed where the faulty sensors are.  I am so tempted to open the battery pack up and just start poking around for obvious signs of water damage in it.  I feel the Victory Battery is defective the Brammo batteries seem to be more reliable.  That's what you get for going with a new design.  The pack probably has poor venting.  Also I notice it has 7 battery modules so I guess if we opened the packs up there must be 4 modules on the top battery and 3 modules in the bottom battery like the Brammo Empulse R.

I don't think Clawson Motorsports will even work on the battery because the service manual has no information on how to service the battery.  It's like if anything happens to the battery the answer is replace it.  O_o'  The data logging system is so neat on the Empulse!

[HadesOmega]

I was poking around with google and I found this post on this forum that someone is trying to repair a water damaged Empulse R battery.  This looks like it could be my problem.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/newbie-battery-pcb-repair-component-identification/

[EV promise]

Hi, sadly like you, I don't think they will work on it. The best you could hope for is the lower pack to be changed for a good one from another bike they bought back. I  think your warranty will be valid as the moisture in the cell is by poor design or assembly and thus they will make you an offer. Amazing find on opening battery module with moisture issue. I think you're will look like that and not be repairable.Module 5 on my Brammo is front lower, so receives the most water spray off the front wheel so worth other owners downloading their logs to check. I'll look at mine when I come to remove the seat to connect the usb socket for my sat nav. I found and bought the small 12v power connector.  (Will enable me to find chargers in places I don't know). Good luck

[HadesOmega]

[KaFr]

You are doing a very good job, both HadesOmega and EV promise!
As the only owner of the Victory Empulse TT in Europe, I am extremely grateful to you. 
Now you definitely have more experience than a Polaris service technician. 
And it looks like, that only the last shards, that fit into the B8-B9-B40 image, are missing.

Based on your knowledge, I have the following theory:
- the initial problem of everything that followed is the ingress of water into the lower module (module number 5 in the front), either through the BMS connector or another connector.
- subsequent heating and cooling of the battery cells (during driving and charging) increased the relative humidity, which caused gradual corrosion of the BMS board inside the module (there is only one BMS board for all cells inside the module)
- during the last charge, due to a corroded component on the board (which processes the temperature information), it reported a much lower temperature than the other cells (false information)
- therefore, the cell heater in module 5 is switched on to increase the temperature
- however, the temperature was OK and so the temperature of cell 5 and other cells (also due near to 100%SoC) increased until it reached a critical value
- to prevent damage, the control unit disconnected the upper module completely and stopped charging (in the upper module the temperature of one of the cells was probably higher than in the lower module)

So the important thing is that all the cells in both modules are OK. Only some components on the bottom module board are damaged. It is therefore cheaper and easier to repair than if the faulty battery cell had to be replaced.

Don't you remember if you didn't ride in the rain before the first B9 mistake, or if you didn't rinse the front of the motorcycle with pressurized water?

Also about the faulty engine temperature sensor. Maybe it's a similar case. The sensor is OK, but the board to which the sensor is connected is corroded. Isn't this board inside the bottom module too?

[KaFr]

I took another look at your Component Tour video. At 3:36, a cable wrapped around the cooling hose can be seen. This is the communication cable for the bottom module and this connector most likely got the water inside. There are several exposed wires close to the connector. And it's an unprotected place against splashing water, just behind the fender and just above the radiator.

I have a similar experience with the Peugeot E-Vivacity electric scooter. There was (already from the factory) insufficiently insulated connector of the Sevcon engine control unit, which is located above the rear wheel. And with this connector, when driving in the rain, water entered and then it corroded on the motherboard. The manufacturer then had to additionally insulate it as part of the convening event for all manufactured scooters.

I am very surprised that Polaris underestimated such a fundamental thing as the thorough insulation of a connector that is directly exposed to splashing water.

[empulsefan]

hello, as the cells each have a temp sensor, you could ice one and see in the logs which on it is. greetings, Gerry

[HadesOmega]

Ok two things happened today.

I got an email from Zach from Victory and he told me the motor temp sensor is not covered under warranty anymore.  No big deal I'll just leave it unplugged I guess.

I got a call from Moss (I think that's his name) the technician working on Empulse 139, but I couldn't answer and he wanted me to call him back.  I called the service department but I couldn't talk to him but someone else helped me and he told me that one of the battery modules is damaged and needs to be replaced.  I think he mentioned it was the upper module.  So like KaFr said the upper pack is not functioning because the green light doesn't blink anymore.  So my previous theory about the bottom pack being the problem was wrong, maybe the Victory pack's modules are setup in a different order than the Brammo ones, because I was for sure the 3 modules with the moisture problem were grouped together in the lower pack.  O_o', but who am I to argue they have the equipment and skills to work on the bike.

So the service person told me that it's going to cost $7000 in parts to fix it!  He is going to put a request to Polaris and see what they say.  So the ball is tossed to Polaris.  There's a number of things they can do is:
- attempt to repair the bad modules. 
- Send the pack back to the Polaris and have them refurbish it. 
- Or replace the pack with a new unit. 
- Then there's the buyback option.   

So fingers crossed I think the best option is replace the bad pack.  You can bet for sure if it wasn't under warranty and they wanted me to buy a new pack I would attempt to fix the pack myself.

[KaFr]

I think the information from the technician that the upper battery module is defective still does not rule out that there is excessive moisture in the lower functional module. It could easily have happened that due to a defective humidity sensor in the lower module, some component on its board could be destroyed due to overheating inside the upper module.
It would be best to contact the technician who has worked on the diagnostics of your motorcycle once again to confirm whether there is increased humidity in the lower or upper module. He should also know how the individual packages in the modules are numbered.

The following indications lead me to the fact that the excessive humidity is in the lower module:

1) The numbering of the modules, as you described in your video, is correct in my opinion, because it has similarly numbered Brammo Enertia Basic batteries in the repair manual.

2) Furthermore, there is a much higher probability that water will get into the lower module through the BMS connector, because this connector is directly exposed to splashing water from the front wheel. (The connector of the upper module is relatively well protected by the motorcycle frame, the upper bonnet and is also very far from the front wheel.) In your video about the B40 error, part 3 you can see the detail of the BMS connector on the lower module. The connector has a total of 12 pins, but only a few are used. Other unused pins are blinded with plastic pins. In my opinion, this is a very weak point where water can get into the module. I have a similar experience with my Peugeot E-Vivacity. While driving in the rain, the water leaked into the Sevcon controller, whose PCB board then corroded. The technicians had to put plastic pins in the unused pins, but I additionally sealed it with silicone to make sure it was really waterproof.

3) Increased humidity was only in three packages. If there was moisture in the top module, there would be increased humidity in the four packages.

4) the highest humidity is in package 5 (closest to the BMS connector), in packages 6 and 7 the humidity decreases a bit (they are further from the connector)

Can you please analyze the voltage and temperatures of the individual packages from the fateful moment when the overheating warning appeared. Being extreme in a package can help us clarify where something may have been damaged by overheating.

[KaFr]

Sevcon connector on Peugeot E-Vivacity, which had a problem with leakage:
1) factory modification - unused pins blinded

[KaFr]

2) my waterproofing improvements - transparent silicone sealant

[KaFr]

Enertia Basic battery numbering:

[HadesOmega]

Yeah I thought it doesn't make sense, I wish I could have talked to the tech directly or he left a message describing the problem. But as long as they can take care of all the battery faults would be nice.

[KaFr]

I wish you, they would replace both battery modules with new ones!

If that doesn't work, I can think of another variant that you would definitely like. 
There are a few more unsold Victory Empulse TTs, so Polaris could give you a new whole motorcycle. 

PaulHMartinez had a similar experience. His first Victory Empulse had an engine failure (coolant leak). He found another Empulse at the dealer's and Polaris gave it to him in exchange.

See Reply #44 on: August 18, 2017, 09:48:44 PM:
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=3469.30
Unfortunately, his second Empulse also had a fault (battery fault the same as you).

Here is an offer of unsold Victory Empulses:
https://www.cycletrader.com/Victory-Empulse/motorcycles-for-sale?make=VICTORY%7C6772333&model=EMPULSE%7C764966449


Here is the brand new Victory Empulse TT in California:
https://www.motounitedbellflower.com/default.asp?page=xInventoryDetail&id=9900905&p=1&s=Year&d=D&sq=empulse&fr=xallinventory

The price for a whole new motorcycle is almost the same as the price of a new battery for your Empulse. 

[KaFr]

Based on your video "Empulse LOG file column description", I confirmed my theory that a false extreme temperature of 69 degrees Celsius is reported by a temperature sensor in package number 5. The same package that has a humidity problem. The culprit of the B40 problem is therefore reliably convicted.

How did you get all the values separated in the columns in the Excel table? I did the data conversion from Enertia and I have all the values located in the first column. 

BTW: In your Excel spreadsheet, you have the values in row number 8 accidentally shifted one column to the right.