Brammo may drop 6.0 kwh, 8.0 kwh Empulse

[protomech]

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/07/brammo-makes-it-easier-to-go-electric-racing/

The race bikes will be based on the Brammo Empulse that Brammo announced one year ago. Bramscher said the company has received 1,000 orders but production was delayed by his decision to incorporate the six-speed transmission Brammo developed for its new line of dirt bikes.

“It was a packaging issue,” Bramscher said of the need to go back to the drawing board. The Empulse was designed with direct drive between the motor and rear wheel. “With the gearbox, the motor is a different size, a different width.”

The Empulse will feature components from the likes of Brembo and Marzocchi. Brammo planned to offer buyers the choice of a six, eight or 10 kilowatt-hour battery, but Bramscher says “99 percent” of orders specify the biggest pack, so the company may scrap the others.

Emphasis mine.

I've flipped back and forth between selecting the 6.0 kwh Empulse and the 8.0 kwh Empulse. The 6.0 kwh model is the least expensive 70+ mph motorcycle I've seen .. and the 60 mile range works well for my commute. The 8.0 kwh model would give me a little bit more insurance, enable some shorter trips, and offer more resistance to range reduction due to aging or cold temperatures.

The 10.0 kwh model is overkill for my needs, but no question the most impressive of the lineup. It might enable some longer trips that the others would not support.

It's interesting to watch the Empulse evolve. I'm still curious when we'll see production specs for the Empulse nailed down .. and a little worried that it seems to keep being tweaked and pushed back.

[WanderLust]

I just read that article myself and headed over here to see what other thought...
I planned to get the 10.0 from the get go, so it's a non issue for me. But seeing that there's a 4K price difference between the 6.0 and the 10.0, it's a pretty big deal for those who only allocated 10K out of their budget for the bike...
But I'm curious if they overstated the actual volume...
is it really 99%?
that would mean there are only 10 6.0 and 8.0 orders put together.
I find that hard to believe...
How many of you actually ordered the 6.0 and 8.0?

[FreepZ]

Thanks for the article.

The bike will be a souped-up version of the Empulse that Brammo says we’ll see within months.

By "months", I hope Brammo means less than 12!

I'm getting a 10. If I was looking for a bike with less range, I may have gone with an Enertia Plus, but I need to be able to go at least 75 miles on a single charge (and that's only one way...)

[EmpulseRider]

I just read that article myself and headed over here to see what other thought...
I planned to get the 10.0 from the get go, so it's a non issue for me. But seeing that there's a 4K price difference between the 6.0 and the 10.0, it's a pretty big deal for those who only allocated 10K out of their budget for the bike...
But I'm curious if they overstated the actual volume...
is it really 99%?
that would mean there are only 10 6.0 and 8.0 orders put together.
I find that hard to believe...
How many of you actually ordered the 6.0 and 8.0?

Hmmm, 99%, that must be an exaggeration. I ordered an 8.0 but won’t mind plunking down a little extra now since the bike has been pushed out a bit and has newer technology. It will be interesting to see how well the 6-speed will work. The fact that I run a blog about the Empulse has me committed to the cause. Happily committed I might add! Brammo, make me a tester!

[Mr.Rodgers]

Yeah, no effect on me(10.0 buyer) but being forced to plunk down another $4 grand because your model got cancelled probably wouldn't sit well with people.

Here's my take on why this is not likely to happen:

Marketing!

Think about it... "The all new Empulse from Brammo.  Prices starting just under $10,000!"

OR

"The all new Empluse from Brammo.  Starting price of $13,995"

$10,000 is a nice price point for many things

Hey, maybe they'll only offer the 10.0, but keep the bikes at $10,000.  Everyone would be happy!

[2Slow4u]

I went for the 10.0 with my 20 miles commute each way and I can fill up at work. Here is the catch though...

I can fill up at work for free and never plug in at home. Also, I can drive the bike harder without worrying about range. Sport bikes are meant to be beat around, not hypermiled. Third, the motor controller is going to pull the same amount of current out of all three battery packs. The amount of "wear and tear" on a battery depends on the current draw on it in relation to its overall capacity as well as how far it is discharged down. Therefore the 10.0 pack should* last longer from a lifetime/cycles standpoint because of the discharge rating AND you won't be going to as deep of a depth of discharge on each cycle before recharging.

Plus I would like to be able to cruise up pacific coast highway on the weekend.

[Phantom]

I also ordered an 8.0 for cost/budget reasons; in case anyone here is keeping track..

I am hoping the manufacturing costs can be kept down with sufficient manufacturing volume. The more cash that they can use to buy raw materials in bulk, and then steadily manufacture, the better.

All the news I have seen lately, (e.g. Polaris investment, Hong Kong deal) are all good signs in my view.

[ttxgpfan]

I asked Brian about this very thing at Miller.  He is very much in favor of dropping the smaller packs for the same reasons 2slow4u selected the 10.0.  He argues that customers who ride the bikes with the smaller packs hard will burn them up faster, and not be happy in the long run.  This is the same argument he used for wanting the 7.5 class pack limit bumped up to 10kWhrs.  (For the record I have put in for at 7.5kWhr usage, so you can run any size pack you want, but I didn't get it on the wiki in time). 

[Gavin]

I could see Brammo going 7.5 and 10....

Having one cheaper model could be good...having three total models might be a bit confusing. Or over-kill...

A 7.5 and 10 would still be what I would like to see...of course I don't have a huge say anyways...


Gavin

[860]

From another part of the board:

Still no "official" confirmation, but my Brammole says it was just a typo.  He/she/it also said that it's possible that it will be  . . .


wait for it . . .


The Empulse 12.0.

 

That could open the door for selling just Empulse 8.0 and Empulse 12.0.  Bracket the prices against the 2012 Zero S ZF6 and ZF9, so that the Empulse staggers between the Zero S prices, instead of competing directly against them.

That makes all the Empulse 8.0 buyers happy, and it throws Empulse 6.0 buyers a bone.  The big question becomes how many 10.0 buyers would really rather have an Empulse 12.0 if given the choice?  If the majority of 10.0 buyers would rather pay more to have the 12.0, then they've got a winning strategy.

Of course, it still might make the most business sense for the first year to just reduce costs and ship one single 10.0 model in one single color, all of them exactly the same.  Then introduce changes and more options in the second year of sales.  I would understand if that was the answer.
 

[2Slow4u]

I would prefer the 12kwhgrill pack over the 10. But it starts becoming a matter of cost. Even at 16k its hard to swollow over some real nice bmw and ducati superbikes

[Gavin]

Kinda hoping that if Brammo goes 12 instead of 10, well they find a way to keep the cost the same...Polaris money could help them to eat some profits in the first year of Empulse sales...by second year production costs will be less and the 12 kwh Empulse could make a profit at 14k..

But I'm just thinking out loud....

Gavin

[FreepZ]

I would definitly buy 12kwh if it was available, since 10kwh is just too short for my commute (unless I ride at 45 mph all the way). I would be very surprised if they could pull it off, since there is only so much physical space they have to work with. Unless Brammo gets their hands on battery technology that has a higher density, they are going to be constrained by the available space.
I'm hoping that the Zero S, with their 114m range, will spur Brammo into trying to outdo them with even more range! (But I'm not optimistic, since "100 mile / 100 mph" has always been their slogan for the Empulse, and that's probably good enough for most people. "100 miles at 100 mph" would be an even better slogan, but the technology isn't here yet.)

[protomech]

Keep in mind that the only mention of a 12 kwh bike is from Brammofan, likely in jest. Won't know until  Brammo announces final specifications of course. I shot Brammo an email a few weeks back to confirm my preorder for a 6.0 kwh, they confirmed my position in the line. If Brammo does drop the 6 and 8 kwh bikes, I would hope they get that information out sooner rather than later.

Single order small quantity of good lithium cells seem to be $500-600/kwh now. Obviously there's more than the cell cost to the price deltas between the 6, 8, 10 kwh models.. packaging, testing, design, etc. Still would be nice to see either more compressed pricing or a capacity bump a year later. (on the other hand, it's possible that Brammo was really struggling to make the bikes work at $10-14k last year.. may be easier to do so this year).

If they can package 12 kwh on the race bike, I bet they can get 12 kwh on the street bike. (never mind that the race bike probably doesn't have an onboard charger, but has a larger motor, different shock packaging, etc)

[ttxgpfan]

I just now remembered.  Brain also said narrowing down options to one sized pack made manufacturing much less expensive.

The RR got upgraged to over a 13kWhr pack for Laguna, again what I learned at Miller.  It doesn't seem like a 12kWhr pack would be much of a packaging issue at this point.  But, we also don't know what effect the new transmission will have on range yet.  I am really looking forward to the EPA tests.