2013 Zero Modells

[oml]

I doubt anyone installs CHAdeMO for home charging. The charging station currently costs about $10k (Nissan) and probably requires higher power distribution than most residences have access to. 1 hour charging is nice, but I've had zero problems with an "8 hour" charge on my Zero .. even with often returning home after midnight, often leaving at 5:30, and 70+ mile days.

I agree. If I charge at home, which i will do most of the time, a lvl 2 j1772 ist more than enough, even lvl 1 would suffice.
But CHAdeMo is worth gold on a longer trip.
Whats the difference between < 1h charging and 3h charging on a roadtrip? Well, in the second case there wont be a roadtrip at all.

IMHO, J1772 is a farce, just a glorified wall plug with a CC billing box attached to it, and it only does 6kW max. Chademo is an actual 60kW off-board direct DC charger.

Yep, I fully agree. SAE J1772 (lvl 2) is shit meant to prevent electric vehicles from overtaking ICE ones. With an CHAdeMO you may invest 10k, but its almost the equivalent of an usual gas station and provides huge flexibility for the vehicle.

[ttxgpfan]

Wikipedia says J1772 is good for up to 80amps, or 19.2kWh.  The SAE has rejected the CHAdeMO chargers, so the gamble in the US is up there.  The J1772 is the safe bet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

Are we certain it is a new motor?  Or just an updated one?

While the new Zero S is more powerful, it's still not what I would consider a sport bike.  The Empulse has a better chassis for racing, and is geared more towards that that style of riding. However a Zero S 8.5 is over 100lbs lighter!  Be darned if I can figure out which one is going to carry more speed through the corner.  Oh many I can't wait for next year!

[Brammofan]

I'm wondering what that kind of charging rate might do to the longevity of the battery.

[Richard230]

Regarding the Zero chassis.  The 2013 model chassis looks a lot like the 2012 chassis.  I have a Yamaha FZ1, as well as two BMWs and a Triumph Bonneville and have owned over 40 motorcycles in the past.  My 2012 Zero  S works really well around town, but to me it feels very nervous when going around high speed corners, especially if they have any bumps in them.  The bike is very light (compared with what I am used to) and the steering is very quick, as it has a short wheelbase, a steep fork angle and relatively wide handlebars. I would really like a steering damper to have been installed when I am riding on mountain roads. I have no doubt that the Empulse will be the better handling bike at high speeds on twisty back roads.  Although the Zero might be the better bike on a very twisty one-lane road or in urban kill-or-be-killed traffic, like you see in San Francisco.   

[protomech]

I'm wondering what that kind of charging rate might do to the longevity of the battery.

Depends greatly on the particular cell chemistry, and Zero has not revealed this yet. Zero is no longer using EIG cells, proving my earlier speculation incorrect.

As an example, Nissan claimed that the Nissan Leaf would retain 80% of its capacity after 5-7 years. With regular CHAdeMO charging (0-80% SOC in 30 minutes = average 1.6C), Nissan expected the Leaf to retain 70% of its capacity after 5-7 years.

Zero is charging the bikes a bit more slowly (in every case they claim 1 hour for 0-95% SOC, or 0.95C average) .. so probably this is not terribly stressful to the batteries.

[ttxgpfan]

Thank you for that insight Richard!  My brain will be chewing on that for a while.

@charging discussion, I would like to point out that a Level 2 charger could supply enough kWh to charge a Zero in the same amount of time (enough volt or current is another subject).  But, the brilliance of the CHAdeMO is that with a Level 2 you'd have to have a giant 10kWh charger on board the bike.  Not the case with the CHAdeMO.  In my interview with him, Brian had said they were looking at things like CHAdeMO.  Right now there are a few competing standards.  I don't think we will see a new Empulse for at least 2 more years.  By then, things may have settled down in that arena and the discussion will have been made for Brammo.  But the pack should also be twice as dense.  What I want to know is, how much is the CHAdeMO option.

[FreepZ]

According to auto blog, the new Zero will connect to your smart phone via Bluetooth, getting information from the bike but also allowing the bike to be configured by the phone. Sounds pretty sweet to me.

Read more here:
http://m.green.autoblog.com/2012/10/03/2013-zero-motorcycles-lineup-faster-farther-chademo/

[protomech]

Thought hit me tonight..

47000 miles of interstate in the US.

Nissan sells a $10k CHAdeMO station. Figure installation is $10k apiece.

Say servicing is $500/station/year, figure 1 hour usage/station/day = ~50 kWh/station/day = $5/day operational costs = $1500/year.a

Install them every 30 miles on the interstates, and you'd need 1500 stations. $30 million to install. $3 million/year to operate. Say every 20 miles, add 50% to the costs.

Why is this not a thing? If we subsidize 10k/year cars @ $7500 .. figure half of those receive state subsidies averaging $2500 .. that's $87 million dollars. Per year.

[AJ Nin]

One hour is still a long charging time and there aren't enough electric cars/bikes yet. And what if when you get there, the station is already being used or not operating? It's not like you can ride another 30 miles to the next station. Maybe in another few years if gas prices go much higher and stay there though, and there are advances in battery technology. With gas prices at $4 or even $10 a gallon, gas stations everywhere, fuel-ups taking 5 minutes, and you can buy a Ninja 300 for 1/4 the cost of the Empulse r and the Ninja goes a real 75-80 mph all day, and the service on them is readily available at hundreds of dealers, electric motorcycles cannot compete.  High cost, low range, long charging times, questionable dependability of electric motorcycles are valid concerns that aren't going away any time soon with the much cheaper alternatives available.   

[Richard230]

Speaking of gas prices, they are predicted (and these press predictions always seem to come true) to reach around $5 a gallon in California this weekend. This is due to a Chevron refinery in No. CA having a fire last month and two refineries in So. CA having a melt-down due to excessive heat.     That gives the oil industry an excuse to raise fuel prices and make a lot more profit while the supply "crisis" lasts.

Time for the press to stop complaining about high gas prices and talking about electric vehicles - instead of telling the public how well big SUV's and pick-up trucks are selling and they had better go out and buy one quickly before the supply runs out.   

[protomech]

One hour is still a long charging time and there aren't enough electric cars/bikes yet.

Yes. Zero only charges at 1/4 of the station capacity. (charge 70 miles per hour)

Nissan Leaf charges using 100% of the station capacity, as a result charges faster in terms of miles per hour (approximately 120 miles per hour) .. despite using more energy per mile.

If a national charging grid was available, EVs would be built to support it. You could build a motorcycle pack with slightly lower energy density that would support a 4C charge .. giving you a charge rate of 250-280 miles per hour.

And what if when you get there, the station is already being used or not operating? It's not like you can ride another 30 miles to the next station.

Probably a better idea to install 2-4 chademo charging seats. Connect the networks to the internet, view availability & operational status online.

Maybe in another few years if gas prices go much higher and stay there though, and there are advances in battery technology. With gas prices at $4 or even $10 a gallon, gas stations everywhere, fuel-ups taking 5 minutes, and you can buy a Ninja 300 for 1/4 the cost of the Empulse r and the Ninja goes a real 75-80 mph all day, and the service on them is readily available at hundreds of dealers, electric motorcycles cannot compete.  High cost, low range, long charging times, questionable dependability of electric motorcycles are valid concerns that aren't going away any time soon with the much cheaper alternatives available.

Those concerns are legitimate, and the best way to ease them is to show that electric bikes do work. Zero has had some trouble with the 2012 bikes (now fixed), but hopefully the 2013 Zero and Brammo bikes will be more solid.

Why would anyone buy anything other than a Ninja 300 if purchase price, and highway speed were the only things that mattered? I see plenty of $10-15k gas bikes running around in the US, so not sure purchase price is an absolute dealbreaker. A 2013 Zero S ZF8.5 will break even in costs with a Ninja 250R by 100k miles.. if the Ninja can make it that far.

[Richard230]

When I owned a 2004 Ninja 250 (which I gave to my daughter and she still is riding, now with about 26K miles on the clock), the Ninja forum that I used to frequent (as Ninjarich) claimed that the motor was good for about 60K miles and then it was time to replace it with a crashed bike's motor, as it cost too much to rebuild.  My problem with the 250 was that it was a real hassle to perform maintenance on.  A typical 6K service, which included a valve adjustment, would take me all day.  Lots of fairing parts to remove, the oil filter was inside the sump, wires and hoses all over the place that needed to be removed to access the valve covers and adjusting the 8 little tiny valves was a real nightmare - especially when a feeler gauge slipped out of my fingers and dropped down the cam chain tunnel into the crankshaft area.  Boy, was I lucky with that one as I was able to get the gauge out of the works using a telescoping magnet pickup tool.

Anyway, you really have to figure in the cost for servicing and parts into the Ninja/e-bike running cost equation.  If you paid a dealer's mechanic to perform the regular servicing every 6K miles, you would likely be paying around $600 for each service. That really adds up over time.  One of the things I really like about my Zero is that I don't have to perform (or pay for) that type of servicing.

Unfortunately (for me), I am still servicing my daughter's bikes as she likes to ride but doesn't like getting her hands dirty.  The Ninja is a fun and economical IC motorcycle, but I really don't like to service it.