Author Topic: Question About Recharge Times  (Read 859 times)

Mithion

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Question About Recharge Times
« on: June 13, 2012, 05:47:28 PM »
As most of you know I am not the most educated when it comes to this electric technology but I am slowly learning thanks to people like Protomech answering my questions.

From my understanding it is the capacity and weight of current batteries that is really the only true downfall of electric vehicles. They are not quite there yet when it comes to range and the more battery means the more weight. While the amazing scientists and engineers of the world continue to do research to make battery technology better and give more capacity at a smaller size and less weight would it make sense while we gladly wait to increase recharge time?

What I am saying is it will take time for battery technology to get where everyone feels an electric vehicle can truly compete with an ICE vehicle, and that wait is ok. But while we wait wouldn't increasing the recharge time of our current crop of EV's at least buffer some of this range anxiety?

Right now the average recharge time is around 4-8 hours depending on the vehicle and with the Level 2 J1772 charging its a bit faster. Can it get even faster than that? Is there a Level 3 possibility? I would for sure have less range anxiety knowing that while I do have a limited range I could go to a recharge station and continue on my journey. If recharge times were decreased by a decent amount than being able to recharge in say minuets instead of hours would surely make up for the lack of current capacity. I am not saying I think these times should be unrealistic like 30 min, but even 1.5 hours is really not that bad. Put recharging stations near places of interest so we can kill and hour and a half at a restaurant, walking around a mall or some other activity. An hour an a half goes by quick when your engaged in something.

How fast can an EV be safely recharged and do you think that dramatically increased recharge times would help buffer the current lack of extreme battery capacity and EV range?

protomech

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Re: Question About Recharge Times
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2012, 06:52:25 PM »
Individual cells that are designed for fast charging can be charged from near empty to near full in as few as five or ten minutes (for the very fastest cells). Vehicles like the Nissan Leaf can accept an 80% charge in 30 minutes from a 480V level 3 fast DC charge.

As you say, bike batteries are much smaller than car batteries and can pick up a significant charge even from a level 2 AC charger. The level 2 "chargers" (in truth, they're called supply equipment because all they do is supply AC current to the bike, the bike's onboard charger converts AC to DC and charges the battery in a controlled fashion) operate at 240V and typically provide 30A or more (6 kW), up to 80A (16 kW).

So why don't we see a 16 kW charger on the Empulse, since it supports J1772? That'd give the bike a 80% 30 minute charge..

1. Battery weight. Battery cells typically feature a tradeoff between power and energy .. which is to say, for a fixed weight and size budget you can either store more energy or discharge a smaller amount of energy faster. A power cell that can recharge very quickly (30 minutes) may not store as much energy as a cell that wants 1-2 hours to charge. Brammo has selected very high energy cells for the Empulse, which may mean they're more limited in how fast they can accept charge.

2. Battery durability. Regularly charging at fast speeds (80% 30 minute charge) may cause the battery to degrade more quickly. Nissan claims 80% original capacity after 8-10 years for the Nissan Leaf if charged at AC level 2, and 70% original capacity after 8-10 years if regularly charged at DC level 3. These are projections based on lab tests; the real world may prove there to be a lesser or greater impact. Currently it's a moot point as few CHAdeMO chargers exist in the US.

3. Charger weight / size. A faster charger generally is larger and has to deal with more heat (90% efficient at 1 kW is 100W to dissipate, 90% efficient at 16 kW is 1.6 kW to dissipate..). Zero uses a 1 kW charger on their bikes. Brammo uses a 3 kW charger on their bikes. Mission Motors has a design for a 4.5 kW charger that shares a liquid cooling system with the motor .. wonder if Brammo does the same. In short, space is tight.

AC Propulsion has patents on a motor controller (DC -> AC to power the motor) that can operate in reverse (AC -> DC) to charge the batteries. This would be absolutely stellar for big-battery motorcycles that have very tight packaging requirements. The reductive system makes use of IGBTs which might make it prohibitively expensive in the relatively low-cost bike market.

Oak Ridge National Labs (up in TN, a short quick hop and a jump away from me) has developed a similar shared-component technology, and Tesla Motors originally licensed AC Propulsion's reductive technology but has supposedly since designed its own flavor.

When will we see something similar in bikes? I'd like to believe sooner rather than later...

Suppose you had 3 hypothetical designs.

1. Existing Empulse w/ 10 Ah energy cells, 36s9p 103V 90Ah
9.3 kWh, 470 lbs, 56 miles highway range, 3.5 hour charge time (16 miles/hour), $17k.

2. IGBT ACP Empulse w/ 8Ah power cells, 36s10p 103V 80Ah
8.0 kWh, 440 lbs, 48 miles highway range, 0.5 hour 80% charge time @ 16 kW (77 miles/hour), $19k.

3. IGBT ACP Empulse w/ 8Ah power cells, 36s11p 103V 88Ah
9.1 kWh, 470 lbs, 55 miles highway range, 0.5 hour 80% charge time @ 16 kW (90 miles/hour), $21k.

What do you think people would prefer?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 06:55:32 PM by protomech »
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Mithion

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Re: Question About Recharge Times
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2012, 07:32:23 PM »
Lol as always I am baffled by your knowledge. The first thought that came of, and kind of one I nave been meaning to ask is-

Would leaving the charger out of the bike make any difference. By this is mean instead of having the added weight, space and connectivity of an on-board charger wouldn't it make sense to have the charger itself at the recharging station? Now all have is the battery(s), controller, motor etc and the actual charger is at home or at the electron station.

Car Loss

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Re: Question About Recharge Times
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2012, 09:10:42 PM »
Would leaving the charger out of the bike make any difference. By this is mean instead of having the added weight, space and connectivity of an on-board charger wouldn't it make sense to have the charger itself at the recharging station? Now all have is the battery(s), controller, motor etc and the actual charger is at home or at the electron station.

Not likely, because the Nissan pack (and thus, charger) differs from the Brammo pack/charger, which differs from the Tesla's...  Zero kinda does this, only including Level 1 chargers as standard.

Of course, this is all still pending.  In the early days of cars, they all had to have mixture controls, to deal with variable gasoline.  Now, fuel is controlled by specifications, and engine computers can retune slightly for a bad tankful.  Worst case, engine computers put you in a "limp home" mode- you're not stranded somewhere dark.

When ownership of electrics get as boring as this, then I'd expect unified standards on things.  If you read the Tesla forums, they're convinced everyone else should adopt every one of Tesla's interfaces, of course.  It's also a de facto argument for Chevy's strategy: punt, and make in-the-field charging optional.

Carlos