Happy New Year

[Richard230]

I just wanted to wish every Brammo/Victory owner a Happy New Year and I hope that you can keep your bikes running long enough to see many more new years.    It is tough being an early adopter of a new technology, but I guess someone has to do it or we would never see much progress in our society. 

[Brammofan]

Happy New Year to you, Richard. Thanks for all your valuable contributions to this forum.

[Ultratoad]

Agreed....  Hopefully there will be more posts in the New Year....  Only WE can keep this thing alive....

[MichaelJ]

Happy New Year, all, and keep riding!

[Shinysideup]

Happy New Year, all, and keep riding!

Happy 2018 to all.

Michael - I noticed in your signature that your wife has a 2017 Zero S. It may be interesting for us to hear about your impressions of it compared to your experience of riding the Empulse...

[Richard230]

Happy New Year, all, and keep riding!

Happy 2018 to all.

Michael - I noticed in your signature that your wife has a 2017 Zero S. It may be interesting for us to hear about your impressions of it compared to your experience of riding the Empulse...

As an owner of a 2018 S, a comparison like that would certainly be interesting to me. 

I gave my 2014 Zero S to my daughter, who now has both my old 2012 S and the 2014.  She rides around Marin County and along the coast and enjoys both.  I might add that the EIC (I believe they are) batteries in the 2012 Zero seem to be holding up better than the Farasis batteries in the 2014 Zero, which are no longer capable of being charged to 100%. (They currently stop charging at 92%, but can be forced to charge to 98% if you leave the charger connected for 5 more days.  ).  The 2012 Zero doesn't seem to have suffered any obvious battery degradation so far. 

While the 2014 Zero vastly outperforms the 2012 model, I am seeing almost no difference in motor performance and range of my 2018 S, compared with the 2014.  However, the big difference is the Showa suspension on the new bike, compared with the Fast Ace suspension on the 2014 and 2012 models (the Fast Ace suspension installed on the 2012 is really crappy). It is a huge upgrade.  Also, the braking has been improved on the 2018 bike, with about 50% more bite (and more noise when coming to a stop) from the front brake. It also has ABS, but that has never been activated so far, so I don't know how well that works.

Personally, I can't really see any difference between the 2017 Zeros and the 2018 models.  Most of the advances appear to be the result of marketing spin, not anything that the owner will notice.  One bit of spin on Zero's website is that they claim that the 2017-2018 bikes' firmware can be updated via Zero smart phone app.  As near as I can tell, this is either a lie, a figment of someone's imagination that was never corrected on their website's product feature section, or something that was planned and never worked out in practice. 

I'll add one more comment:  My 2014 Zero was rated at 14.2 kWh, but actually showed 13.38 kWh on the Zero app when it was new.  The 2018 bike is claimed to have a battery capacity of 16.6 kWh (nominal) and shows 15.18 kWh on the app when fully charged.  However, range appears to be about the same with both bikes, as the 2014 model would charge to a maximum of 117 volts, while the 2018 bike stops charging at 115 volts.  Also, the old bike would die when the display read exactly 0%, while the new Zero apparently will continue to run for 10 or 20 miles after the pack reaches 0%.  Since we all have range anxiety, that in practice, does nothing to make use of the extra 2 kWh in the 2018 bike.    It would appear that Zero is doing their best to be sure that their batteries will last for the duration of their 5 year warranty. 

[lamber]

Happy New Year!  I am hoping to contribute a lot more this year as I am fairly new to this forum.

Interesting to hear the anecdote about the Farasis cells, I wonder if it is a cell issue or a software issue.  Farasis makes pretty impressive claims about their cell capabilities.

[Richard230]

Happy New Year!  I am hoping to contribute a lot more this year as I am fairly new to this forum.

Interesting to hear the anecdote about the Farasis cells, I wonder if it is a cell issue or a software issue.  Farasis makes pretty impressive claims about their cell capabilities.

It is possible that I have a couple of bad cells that are charging faster than the rest.

It is perhaps more likely that keeping the charger connected to power 24/7 for 3.5 years and the pack charged to 100% as originally recommended by Zero, damaged the cells somewhat. About 6 months ago, Zero released an update saying that should no longer be done and that the charger should be disconnected once the pack is fully charged in order to extend the life of their battery packs. 

[lamber]

That's odd that leaving the charger connected would cause a problem, unless they weren't detecting 100% SOC in the software and turning off the charger.

What is true is that keeping cells at 100% SOC has a significant negative effect on their cycle life, although "100%" is a subjective SOC number created by Zero, you would have to compare the open circuit voltage of the cell to Farasis specs to see what it actually corresponds to.

[Richard230]

That's odd that leaving the charger connected would cause a problem, unless they weren't detecting 100% SOC in the software and turning off the charger.

What is true is that keeping cells at 100% SOC has a significant negative effect on their cycle life, although "100%" is a subjective SOC number created by Zero, you would have to compare the open circuit voltage of the cell to Farasis specs to see what it actually corresponds to.

When the 2014 bike was new it would charge to 117 volts.  In its latest condition it cuts off charging at 113 volts, although if you continue to leave the charger connected, it will eventually reach 115 volts and charge of 98% on both the display and the Zero app.  My 2018 S shows 115 volts when the charger cuts off and the display shows 100%.  All Zero said about leaving the charger plugged in all of the time as they originally recommended, is that doing so will affect the "long term health of the batteries" and they currently recommend pulling the plug once the display shows 100%.

[Shinysideup]

Hmm... and exactly how does a Zero owner know the battery is at 100%? Especially if it achieves that level at, say, 3:37 a.m.? Looks like it would benefit by a smart charger that would automatically turn itself off.

On our Chevy Bolt, I'm following the practice of putting it "Hilltop Reserve", designed to quit charging at 90% so regen works when I start up and come down a long hill. Forum posters' consensus is that this practice MAY prolong battery life, somewhat.

Tesla lets owners choose the cutoff and recommend, IIRC, quitting at the 80% level, and not letting the pack get below 20%.

[Richard230]

Hmm... and exactly how does a Zero owner know the battery is at 100%? Especially if it achieves that level at, say, 3:37 a.m.? Looks like it would benefit by a smart charger that would automatically turn itself off.

They don't and you are right, Sunnysideup. In fact, if I leave my charger plugged in more than a few minutes after it finishes charging, when I pull the plug the contactor will not disconnect and the charger will remain connected to the battery pack, discharging it to the tune of about 200 watts a day.  If I turn the ignition on and then off again, there will be a loud click and the charging light will finally go out. (Needless to say my dealer says they never heard of this issue before and the bike shows no logs that could be sent to Zero to diagnose the problem.)  All it would take is a firmware update that would completely disconnect the charger (which operates at 5 watts when charging is completed) so that power is no longer going to the battery pack. 

[MichaelJ]

Michael - I noticed in your signature that your wife has a 2017 Zero S. It may be interesting for us to hear about your impressions of it compared to your experience of riding the Empulse...

Yowza.  So sorry to have overlooked your question, Shinysideup.


My wife is rather possessive of her Zero--she is reluctant to let me ride it even when she doesn't.    So far, I have had exactly one ride on it on rural roads, for less than 10 miles and at less than 50 mph.  Since that time, another local motorcycle dealership much closer to home than the one from which she purchased that Zero has also begun carrying Zero.  They had a open house and test ride event at which one or two of each model (S, SR, DS, DSR, FX) were available.  Test rides were conducted as a group, with a dealership or Zero representative leading the pack along twisty and hilly local roads on the outbound leg and a 50 mph road on the return leg.  If I remember correctly, I was on either an SR or DS.


As far as an Empulse rider's impressions of a Zero, nothing stands out as particularly good or bad.  I like both brands.  Enough time has passed since I first started riding and driving EVs that the wide-eyed what-did-Santa-leave-under-the-tree-for-me excitement--and the range anxiety--are gone.  I take them for granted that they work within their limits, and my life activities have made the necessary adaptations.


Maybe that excitement will return once a Tesla Model 3 replaces my Nissan LEAF.


Things they have in common (no surprises here, I hope):

• strong acceleration
• smoothly controlled acceleration and deceleration (regen)
• instant power delivery (no ICE lag)
• good balance when in motion (nearly lost my footing by accident when starting a downhill right turn from a stop sign while riding my wife's Zero)
• quiet (Empulse's motor, transmission, and chain might whine more than Zero's motor and belt)
• doesn't generate noisy, smelly exhaust
• fuel is cheaper and more stable in price than gasoline

Some surprises about the Zero:

• Zero's "tank" is wider than the Empulse's "tank" -- Zero's marketing photos did not prepare me for this, but seeing them side by side in my garage confirms it
• because I have relatively few hours logged on a Zero many months ago, I have what could be a mistaken impression that the Zero felt slightly more top heavy than the Brammo (yes, this means I think Brammos are also top heavy; I got used to it for riding, but if it falls over, I can't pick it up)

Things I like about the Empulse:

• it's a great transition bike for ICE riders not ready to give up a clutch and transmission
• having gears for adjustable acceleration going uphill and regen braking going downhill (no fussing with a "mode" button on the handlebar or changing settings using a smartphone app)
• being able to feather the throttle to change gears instead of using the clutch
• the bright blue EBoz graphics and orange wheels for visibility on the road
• the look of the battery brackets, especially the 7 piston-looking brackets
• Brammo customers don't have to pay extra for a J1772 socket that charges faster than 110VAC

Things I like about the Zeros I've test ridden:

• not worrying about when to shift gear
• a belt drive means not having to grease the chain every 300 miles
• no transmission means not having to worry about a recall for oil breather tube leaks...or changing the transmission oil at all
• larger battery capacity (Empulse = 9.7 kWh) and range (Empulse <= 80 miles)
• higher battery charge rate (Empulse = 3.3 kW?, 2017 Zero S with Charge Tank = 6.6 kW)

Things I would like to see on either:

• brighter colors always available as standard (I love my EBoz blue/orange color scheme, and wear hi-viz ATGATT) for visibility in traffic
• a parking brake for parking on inclines
• a center stand for parking without leaning, with greater stability and confidence, and to avoid having to buy a bike stand to get a wheel off the ground for belt/chain maintenance
• the ability to daisy chain or charge multiple e-bikes from one EVSE (the West Coast Green Highway where I live only pairs one AeroVironment CHAdeMO with one AeroVironment J1772, which makes recharging multiple EVs together very time consuming)
• LED headlamps
• compatibility with CHAdeMO and/or CCS, maybe also Tesla's standard
• a shaft drive for zero chain/belt maintenance
• a powered reverse "gear"
• a powered USB recharging port near the handlebar as standard equipment
• a cruiser frame (yay, Curtiss?) with (1) room for both more battery and more luggage without making the bike look like it is carrying ammunition or suffers from goiter, (2) a place to mount a light bar for better seeing and for being seen, (3) room for an ample windscreen to cut down the wind buffeting, and (4) a feet-first riding posture--all of which I miss from the Suzuki Boulevard C50T, that served me well on a 1,400 mile road trip to Crater Lake and back to the Seattle area during which I visited Brammo HQ in Medford

Despite how much I wrote, I probably haven't directly answered your question, Shinysideup.  Let me know and I'll try to check back on this forum more frequently.