Author Topic: native electric  (Read 2519 times)

1lesscar

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native electric
« on: June 01, 2011, 12:47:07 AM »
 n e one hear of this one?



Richard230

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Re: native electric
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2011, 10:47:37 AM »
I have owned two Oakland, CA based Electric Motorsport (now called Native) GPR-S models, a 60V 2008 and a 72V 2009 D&D sepex motor upgrade. Both bikes gave me nothing but grief. They worked OK when new, but the 2008 model only ran for 300 miles before its BMS burned up. When that happened, I traded it back to EMS for the new version with the larger motor and four more Hi Power 50 Ah batteries (for a total of 24). That one ran about 1300 miles before its new and improved BMS failed, which took out four batteries before I discovered the cause. I then replaced the BMS with a MiniBMS system and replaced the dead batteries, but then the controller started shutting down almost every time that I would come to a stop. I had a radio engineer friend of mine try to fix the bike but he was unable to do so. I finally gave it to my son-in-law so that he could work on it over the summer. So far no progress.

The problem with the EMS GPR-S Native vehicles are that they were "half-baked" and used off-the-shelf components that were not really up to the task of conforming to consumer needs. The LiPo4 batteries could not put out the required current to power the motorcycle without suffering an early death and the BMS systems that were used were not fully tested and were also not up to the task. Both of these bikes cost $8000-$9000 each and as a consumer I expected a better product for my money. Little did I know at the time that the EV industry is pretty much a home-built tinkerer operation using components that were never designed for freeway-legal electric motorcycle use.

Now that I am EV-less, I really want an Empulse and am getting a little tired of waiting. But I can appreciate that Brammo needs the time to make sure that their motorcycles will hold up to consumer use and will not require the owner to diagnosis, solve and repair any problems that may occur after purchase. And that is my sob story for today.   :(

Back to the question: Sorry, I don't know anything about the Native racer. My guess is that it is not based on the production motorcycle model.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 10:49:38 AM by Richard230 »
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

1lesscar

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Re: native electric
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2011, 06:40:15 PM »
 :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D  $20,000.

What a waste of money. I would've spent that money on a gasoline moto and some gasoline. :-X
I have owned two Oakland, CA based Electric Motorsport (now called Native) GPR-S models, a 60V 2008 and a 72V 2009 D&D sepex motor upgrade. Both bikes gave me nothing but grief. They worked OK when new, but the 2008 model only ran for 300 miles before its BMS burned up. When that happened, I traded it back to EMS for the new version with the larger motor and four more Hi Power 50 Ah batteries (for a total of 24). That one ran about 1300 miles before its new and improved BMS failed, which took out four batteries before I discovered the cause. I then replaced the BMS with a MiniBMS system and replaced the dead batteries, but then the controller started shutting down almost every time that I would come to a stop. I had a radio engineer friend of mine try to fix the bike but he was unable to do so. I finally gave it to my son-in-law so that he could work on it over the summer. So far no progress.

The problem with the EMS GPR-S Native vehicles are that they were "half-baked" and used off-the-shelf components that were not really up to the task of conforming to consumer needs. The LiPo4 batteries could not put out the required current to power the motorcycle without suffering an early death and the BMS systems that were used were not fully tested and were also not up to the task. Both of these bikes cost $8000-$9000 each and as a consumer I expected a better product for my money. Little did I know at the time that the EV industry is pretty much a home-built tinkerer operation using components that were never designed for freeway-legal electric motorcycle use.

Now that I am EV-less, I really want an Empulse and am getting a little tired of waiting. But I can appreciate that Brammo needs the time to make sure that their motorcycles will hold up to consumer use and will not require the owner to diagnosis, solve and repair any problems that may occur after purchase. And that is my sob story for today.   :(

Back to the question: Sorry, I don't know anything about the Native racer. My guess is that it is not based on the production motorcycle model.

FreepZ

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Re: native electric
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2011, 08:25:02 PM »
And that is my sob story for today.   :(

Richard, your story is much appreciated. I don't think that most people understand just how much work goes into developing a new production vehicle (I sure don't!) We all just expect things to work and get mad when they don't, and get mad when things take a long time to developed. Hearing horror stories like what you've been through can certainly help us to be a little more patient -- Nobody wants to spend a pile of money on a bike that just gives endless problems (endless problems is exactly why I had to get rid my last bike. :'()

Has anybody else had any similarly bad stories with their EVs?
Richard #935 #595 #44

Richard230

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Re: native electric
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2011, 10:24:22 AM »
I have to admit that I really learned a lot from the School of EV Hard Knocks. It cost me about $15 to get this education, but now I am much better informed - and a lot more cautious regarding the EV business. I had previously purchased 40 IC production motorcycles from all of the major manufacturers (even Puch, sold by Sears Roebuck) over the past 49 years. They were all reasonably reliable and if they were not, you could take them back to the dealer for repair or for parts.

So I purchased my first GPR-S from an electric motorcycle dealer who had recently gone into business (and a year later went out of business), hoping to support both his shop as well as this new industry. Naturally, based upon my IC M/C experience, I expected few problems with this apparently simple electric motorcycle. I really had no idea how complicated failures could be to resolve and how one problem could lead to failure of another part. I also didn't realize how expensive it was to replace things like batteries, motors and controllers. Basically, what I did was to close my eyes, without doing any real research, and jump off the EV cliff.

When my first bike failed, I assumed that it was a fluke. After the manufacturer seemed to have no interest in repairing my bike under their "warranty", giving me excuses such as they were too busy racing or were visiting the chassis factory in Thailand and had no time to attend to my problem, I decided to sell it back to them in the hopes that the new version would have the bugs worked out. (Big mistake!)

When the bugs returned on that bike, I spent a lot of time trying to solve the problems myself and after researching EV technology on-line, I finally realized that it was a lot more complicated than I had imagined. I also discovered that I was not able to really understand EV systems adequately to find faults, nor did I have the skills necessary to effect repairs. Bodging just doesn't work on EVs, the way it can on IC motorcycles.

I know when to throw in the towel on self-help. I still want to support the emerging EV business and I really do enjoy riding electric motorcycles due to their lack of noise, smooth operation and lack of having to visit a stinking gas station every few days. But now I will only purchase an electric motorcycle from a recognized manufacturer who has a track record with a demonstrated ability to solve their customers vehicle problems.

To my knowledge, only Brammo has shown this type of service record. While Brammo has only sold the Enertia, as near as I can tell, the bike has had few problems and when they have occurred, they have been resolved without the owner having to return the vehicle to the factory, or perform repairs themselves (such as the owners of the Zero products sometimes have to do).

As much as I hate to wait, I have learned enough to realize that I would rather own a fully-developed Empulse and not ever have to experience what I went through with my GPR-S.
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Brammofan

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Re: native electric
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2011, 10:39:42 AM »
But now I will only purchase an electric motorcycle from a recognized manufacturer who has a track record with a demonstrated ability to solve their customers vehicle problems.

To my knowledge, only Brammo has shown this type of service record. While Brammo has only sold the Enertia, as near as I can tell, the bike has had few problems and when they have occurred, they have been resolved without the owner having to return the vehicle to the factory, or perform repairs themselves (such as the owners of the Zero products sometimes have to do).
I can attest to the astounding level of customer service Brammo employs.  When I recently had an issue, they did try to talk me through it, but when we both realized I had reached my level of mechanical ineptitude, they didn't hesitate to send a tech to fix the problem (which, it turned out, was due to my actions, not to any particular issue with the bike).
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Gavin

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Re: native electric
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2011, 10:46:43 AM »
(which, it turned out, was due to my actions, not to any particular issue with the bike).


any chance you might elaborate? Could help other Brammo riders (current--pun semi intended--and future)...

Gavin

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Re: native electric
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2011, 10:52:40 AM »
I've actually been meaning to post about this.  Which I have done: How I screwed up.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 11:14:32 AM by Brammofan »
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