Empulse pre-orders

[860]

Or by mileage...

Enertia 40, 80....120, 160---personally I look forward to updating to an Enertia 160

Empulse 60, 80, 100....I do like Empulse 200 more than Empulse 20.

I do think the average consumer might understand a number based on mileage more...and I kinda like the bigger numbers...

Naming the bikes based upon range would be the same as handing a 20-lb sledge hammer to every anti-EV bonehead out there, and telling them to take all the free swings at Brammo that they want.  It would produce an endless stream of internet comments along this line:

"I rode a Brammo 100 once, and I only got 30 miles of burnouts, wheelies, 0-100 launches, and 100 MPG top speed runs on the track.  Brammo 100?  More like a Brammo 30!  Brammo are liars.  Brammo sucks.  In the real world, e-motos just don't work.  We should wait for hydrogen powered motorcycles."

Top Gear already did that exact same hack piece on the Tesla Roadster when they "tested" it.  (And by "tested", I mean "followed the pre-written script").

[860]

Right. Packaging is a big issue.

One hint is Panasonic's 18650 cells that I mentioned earlier. They have a 2.9Ah and 3.1Ah cell currently, Panasonic expects to be producing a 3.4Ah cell prior to March 2012, and a 4.0Ah cell prior to March 2013.

All of these are in the same form factor, an 18mm diameter / 65mm length cylindrical cell. The specific energy Wh/kg goes up a bit, but what actually happens is the weight of the cell goes up from the 2.9Ah to the 4.0Ah cell. Volume stays the same, energy goes up a lot, weight goes up a little.

No idea if we'll see a similar effect as lithium batteries continue to evolve. But it's good for racing!

Thanks for the confirmation on weights and battery pack changes.

It sounds like if we're looking at keeping the same physical volume (dimensions) in order to fit the same space in the bike, the weight isn't really a factor.  Because the weight of each cell can increase, and each cell will still take up the same amount of space.  Weight will impact overall performance, but it won't impact how many cells you can fit into a fixed space.  The space limitation is a bigger wall for next-generation Empulses than the weight limitation, so we can just throw out looking at weight and Wh/kg ratings, and concentrate on Ah ratings.  

Has it been said anywhere what cells Brammo is using in their latest battery pack?  Are they Panasonic 18650's?  My memory is going...

Just for sake of comparison, if Panasonic is at ~3 Ah now, then they would need to increase to ~6 Ah rated 18650 batteries to double the capacity of a battery pack using the same amount of space.   If Brammo is currently using something similar to the ~3 Ah Panasonic's, then with the equivalent of the 4.0 Ah cells in 2013, Brammo could go from 10.0 to nearly 14.0 in time for 2014 MY Empulse's.  

To make a leap, if Panasonic is able to increase capacity by .5 Ah each year (guestimate based upon the dates you posted) then somewhere around 5-6 years from now they could have 6 Ah 18650 cells.  If Brammo's battery packs followed the same trajectory, we're talking about somewhere around 2017-ish or 2018-ish for an Empulse 20.0?  (This of course assumes no new huge revolutionary battery technology, and no laws of physics blocking further battery development progress.)  

An Empulse 20.0 by 2017/2018 actually isn't as bad as I first thought.  Some of the extra battery power could be used to increased acceleration and top speed, and the rest to increasing range.  That would put it in the same sort of range as the Model S in the EV-car world (but faster).  

I'm just glad that even an Empulse 8.0 will be plenty of battery for my needs, and I won't have to wait that long!

[protomech]

At one time Brammo planned to use Leyden Energy cells. I believe that has since fallen through; no idea whether they're using cylindrical cells or pouches or large format prismatic cells internally. Would like to know : )

However, let's not let lack of knowledge get in the way of making assumptions! Cylindrical cells, GO.

Valence's U1-12XP modules are 110 Wh/L.

We've seen the Enertia cutaway a few times, so we can make some guesses as to how many cells are in the U1-12XP.





A configuration like this:

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stacked two-high gives us 122 cells (2 * (6 * 6 + 5 * 5)). Probably 120 cells with a bit of padding.

U1-12XP outer dimensions (PDF) are 197x131x182mm LxWxH. Excluding tabs and padding, the cell configuration is around 174x108x130mm.

12.8V 40Ah for the module is likely 4S 30P, meaning the 18650 cells are 3.2V 1.3Ah, or around 260 Wh/L.

Brammo's 44/70 module is 44.4V 70Ah, which works nicely out to 12S. Their module is 3x as large as Valence's; they can probably pack a few more than 3x as many given the larger module, but perhaps they use extra space for cooling or management. Call it 360 18650 cells, which produces a pack of 12S 30P. 3.7V 2.33Ah 18650s, around 525 Wh/L for the cells. The module is approximately twice as dense as Valence's, so let's say 220 Wh/L for the entire module.

Panasonic's prior-to-FY-2013 4.0Ah cells claim 800 Wh/L. They claim that date to be for volume production too. That's already a 60% gain in the same space as the 2012 Empulse.

Nikkei Electronics has a chart showing a 11% average annual increase in (Panasonic?) 18650 Ah capacity from 1994 to 2009. They also show an 18% annual increase with Panasonic's new anode material. I don't know if they're simply extrapolating from the two data points available or if they have reason to expect a higher annual growth rate.

Either way, we'll probably see 1000 Wh/L cells in volume production by 2015-2016. Those cells should enable a doubling in pack capacity in the same volume as the 2012 bikes. Granted, huge amount of assumptions here..

[Gavin]

The cases look like they would hold pouches to me...

But then again it could hold Cylinders too....easily...

My mind keeps seeing pouches though...probably from my time obsessing over the LEAF battery pack.

Plus the pouches just look cool...like freezed dried Astronaut food you buy at the Air and Space Museum in D.C.

Gavin

[EmpulseRider]

Perhaps Brammo is planning on using that same 44/70 pack in the Empulse. 3 of them would yield 9.3kWh right? Would it not make sense to use the same pack as much as possible? Now that we know Brammo is no longer using the Leyden cells perhaps the battery specs will change as well. I think there were rumors that Brammo was going to drop the 6.0 and 8.0, so just a single Empulse model would not need the 10.0 designation. Just speculation... BTW what cells do they use in the RR?

[protomech]

The original specs for the 6.0, 8.0, and 10.0 were as follows:

6.0 88.8V, assumed 67Ah
8.0 88.8V, assumed 90Ah
10.0 111V, assumed 90Ah

I suppose the Empulse 6.0 would use the same configuration of cells as the Enertia Plus; possibly even the same modules, which would represent a visual change from the four gold prismatic modules that are exposed in the Empulse Concept.

It makes sense for Brammo to re-use the same cells (if not modules) where possible. Re-using 3 BPM 44/70s in series would give a 133V 70Ah pack. You could reconfigure the modules to be 88.8V 35Ah each, or an an 88.8V 105Ah pack.

I'd love to know if the 6.0 and 8.0 configurations are still on target.

[Richard230]

When I was at the Scuderia West Brammo-day last summer, I spoke with one of the "suits" there and he told me that they were building their own batteries at the Oregon plant using Chinese-made lithium pouches. He said that they had a special room full of safety equipment in case things got out of hand during the assembly process.  Of course, it is quite possible that Brammo was just giving building their own batteries a try for testing purposes and are going to buy them from a big manufacturer, such as Panasonic, for the production bikes.

[protomech]

I believe that was well after they switched away from Leyden Energy, so it is very likely that they are using pouch cells then in the shipping 2012 Brammos.

However, I think it's reasonable to assume both that pouch cells with similar chemistry and sophistication will be in the same ballpark Wh/kg and Wh/L as cylindrical cells, and that we should expect to see similar growth.

The dates and figures might be off a little, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were fairly accurate.

[860]

...let's not let lack of knowledge get in the way of making assumptions! Cylindrical cells, GO....



Nikkei Electronics has a chart showing a 11% average annual increase in (Panasonic?) 18650 Ah capacity from 1994 to 2009. They also show an 18% annual increase with Panasonic's new anode material. I don't know if they're simply extrapolating from the two data points available or if they have reason to expect a higher annual growth rate.

If facts were allowed to get in the way, the entire internet would collapse.   



I'd never seen that link before to the Panasonic info.  Especially this part:

"Si alloy has a theoretical capacity at least ten times greater than the graphite now most commonly used in anodes"

In other words, their current ~3 Ah battery could theoretically grow to be a 30 Ah battery using the same amount of space.  We do know that Tesla is using a Panasonic variant.  At 18% improvement per year, it would take around 15 years to get to the theoretical max.  But that kind of improvement would turn the 300 mile Model S into a 3,000 mile Model S.  That's crazy stuff to think about.


Here is what 18% per year would do to the Model S range starting from a 300 mile baseline:
1  354 miles
2  418
3  492
4  581
5  686
6  809
7  955
8  1,127
9  1,330
10 1,570

That's doubling range in 5 years, and FIVE times the range on the same number of batteries in just a decade.  Now I know why Musk has that famous smirk/half smile.  He's going to make a killing just sitting back and letting Panasonic do all the hard work developing better and better batteries every year.  Even if Panasonic only gets half way to the theoretical max, it will be a complete game changer.

[protomech]

Perhaps Brammo is planning on using that same 44/70 pack in the Empulse. 3 of them would yield 9.3kWh right? Would it not make sense to use the same pack as much as possible? Now that we know Brammo is no longer using the Leyden cells perhaps the battery specs will change as well. I think there were rumors that Brammo was going to drop the 6.0 and 8.0, so just a single Empulse model would not need the 10.0 designation. Just speculation... BTW what cells do they use in the RR?

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/09/business/la-fi-brammo-empulse-ims-20111207

The 9.7-kilowatt-hour lithium ion battery pack will rate between 9.5 and 10 in the production version, Bramscher said.

You're right about dropping the 10.0 from the name. The Latimes article doesn't mention any other configuration than the 10kwh bike. BrammoBrian doesn't mention any charge time over than the 10kwh charge time in the J1772 comment. Will have to watch carefully.

[EmpulseRider]

Ah OK, 9.7 not 9.3 so probably not the same 44/70 packs.
There is a quote from Craig Bramscher out there that says something along the lines that 90% of pre-orders were for the 10.0 so the 6.0 and 8.0 would be dropped. Probably another reason the Engage (Street) has taken the $12k price point too.

[BrammoAddict]

Brammo, Inc.: Order #1590 notification

Just pre-ordered my Brammo Empulse 10 on 10th January and await news of the final bike specifications and when production will start.

They stated they take the $1000 non refunable deposit 3mths prior to expected bike delivery date.

Anyone been asked for their deposits yet?
Anyone have any idea how many bikes they plan to produce per month?

So am I sitting tight like everyone else in the pre-order queue.....

[Richard230]

I haven't heard a peep from Brammo since I pre-ordered an Empulse 10.0 in July of 2010.   

[EmpulseRider]

I haven't heard a peep from Brammo since I pre-ordered an Empulse 10.0 in July of 2010.  

I also placed my order back in July 2010 and have been patiently waiting since. I have 14k burning a hole in my pocket and was hoping to be riding by this summer. Im going nuts waiting on any news... checking the forums every hour, on the hour for any new news... its pathetic, I know.

BTW, welcome to the forum BrammoAddict!

[protomech]

Brammo, Inc.: Order #1590 notification

Just pre-ordered my Brammo Empulse 10 on 10th January and await news of the final bike specifications and when production will start.

They stated they take the $1000 non refunable deposit 3mths prior to expected bike delivery date.

Anyone been asked for their deposits yet?
Anyone have any idea how many bikes they plan to produce per month?

Brammo claims the Hungary Flextronics line can produce up to 660 bikes per month. That's Enertia, Enertia Plus, and Empulse combined I believe.
http://www.brammo.com/press-releases/article.php?id=68

I expect we'll see final specifications before anyone is asked for deposits. I maintain hope that Brammo is a rational actor and will be releasing final specifications no later than the end of February..

So am I sitting tight like everyone else in the pre-order queue.....

Yep. We're all sitting huddled around the fire chewing over each scrap of information released from Brammo : )