Empulse pre-orders

[BrammoBrian]

 I have a feeling that a large number of Empulse pre-orders will have turned to smoke when the bike finally arrives and it is time to put cash where your typing fingers have been.

exactly, cash that I saved up for the EMPULSE is being spent right now on an ICE. Because with no reassurance from Brammo, I am starting to think its all BS.

We certainly hear and sympathize with the frustration.  It's a tough call as Richard alluded to deciding what information to release and when.  With a new technology in a high rate of change and a motorcycle market that makes things even more challenging, we opted to keep our heads down until we are sure of the final specification.  Rest assured that this does not mean that we haven't been hard at work developing this bike. I remember this frustration well when it was focused on the Enertia - there will be charges of "vaporware", but we'll just keep doing what we do and the naysayers eventually move on or jump on board...

Speaking of smoke...

[EmpulseRider]

Not a bad burnout  . Cant tell if this Empulse utilizes the IET though

[BrammoBrian]

Not a bad burnout  . Cant tell if this Empulse utilizes the IET though

You'll have to take my word for it... that bike has the IET 6-speed.  The proof is that the test rider is Samuele Mazzini, CEO of SMRE.  You can also hear the motor spin up just a little at the end of the clip after the burnout when the clutch is pulled. We've been testing these IET prototypes since early 2011.  This is the problem with releasing information... you always want more! 

[Gavin]

[Brammofan]

Sweet burnout... gotta remember to flip off the camera after you're done, though. 

[860]

You'll have to take my word for it... that bike has the IET 6-speed.  The proof is that the test rider is Samuele Mazzini, CEO of SMRE.  You can also hear the motor spin up just a little at the end of the clip after the burnout when the clutch is pulled. We've been testing these IET prototypes since early 2011.  This is the problem with releasing information... you always want more! 

OK, so we won't pester you with a ton of questions about this prototype bike.  It's good to just even get a tiny bit of information.

But what about that Mazzini guy?  How short is he that he has to use a curb to do a burnout?

(oh, I'm goin straight to hell, I can feel it...)   

[Gavin]

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/brammo-empulse-testing-six-speed-gearbox/


some discussion over at A&R about this...seems some the of facts are confused...I do like that BrammoBrian went over and gave some info...




Quote
BrammoBrian says:
January 4, 2012 at 7:52 AM

I “leaked” (read: posted) that video over on the brammo owner’s forum. This is not a “testament” to the gearbox – just a video of a guy having fun on one of our development prototypes – back in March of last year. The point I was making on said forum is that Brammo’s been in development on the 6-speed for awhile and there’s no e-moto on the market that comes close to the performance. You’ll just have to wait a little longer before all is revealed… sorry.

As this is a development prototype (DVP in Brammo speak), you’re not looking at anywhere near the final design, but I’m very much looking forward to showing that off soon as well!

-Brian.


final design showing soon sounds good to me...I wonder what soon is?

Gavin

[EmpulseRider]

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/brammo-empulse-testing-six-speed-gearbox/


some discussion over at A&R about this...seems some the of facts are confused...I do like that BrammoBrian went over and gave some info...




Quote
BrammoBrian says:
January 4, 2012 at 7:52 AM

I “leaked” (read: posted) that video over on the brammo owner’s forum. This is not a “testament” to the gearbox – just a video of a guy having fun on one of our development prototypes – back in March of last year. The point I was making on said forum is that Brammo’s been in development on the 6-speed for awhile and there’s no e-moto on the market that comes close to the performance. You’ll just have to wait a little longer before all is revealed… sorry.

As this is a development prototype (DVP in Brammo speak), you’re not looking at anywhere near the final design, but I’m very much looking forward to showing that off soon as well!

-Brian.


final design showing soon sounds good to me...I wonder what soon is?

Gavin

The same nay-sayers as usual. Sad that some of these guys find it necessary to spread FUD almost entirely based on assumptions about the new technologies discussed in the article.

[protomech]

However, with todays battery tech. The hottest pack you can put into one of these bikes is A123 20Ah pouch cells and your only going to get ~12kWh before it starts becoming too heavy.

I wanted to revisit this with respect to the BPM 44/70 modules.

I only found one datasheet (PDF) for a 20Ah pouch cell on A123's site. Maybe it's a high-power chemistry, but it lists the specific energy at 131 Wh/kg.

BrammoBrian hints that the BPM cells are somewhere between 190 and 250 Wh/kg.

The Empulse (placeholder?) specs list the 6.0, 8.0, 10.0 kwh bikes at 360, 390, 420 lbs respectively. If we assume the only difference between the bikes is the battery pack, then the total pack specific energy is around 150 Wh/kg.

2012 Zero S ZF9 is 7.9 kWh nominal, 341 lbs. ZF6 is 5.3 kWh nominal, 297 lbs; pack specific energy is around 130 Wh/kg.

Assuming the Empulse placeholder specs are accurate, then (ignoring packaging) an Empulse 20.0 with current batteries should weigh around 570 lbs. That's a heavy bike, but nothing like the 700-800 lb full dressers.

Pricing on a 20 kwh model would be stupid right now at retail $1000/kwh. Actual cell cost seems to float between $300-500/kwh depending on whose numbers you believe.. I figure as the bikes are produced in volume we'll see retail pricing on the large packs drop down closer to actual material costs. A 2015 Empulse 20.0 kwh might look something like 200 wh/kg pack, 520 lbs, 80 kw motor, $14-15k retail pricing.

TTXGP and IOM will be interesting this year to see how much pack people are able to cram into their bikes..

[860]

protomech -- Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Brammo changed batteries since they first announced the 360, 390, 420 weights? 

I just keep being really suspicious about those weights.  They look too round, and too out-of-date to invest anything into them.  Just a couple of kilo's here and there, and all the the sudden they are back somewhere in the 190 to 250 Wh/kg range, or way down to Zero's 130 Wh/kg range.

The problem with an Empulse 20.0 is the actual physical space limitations.  I just don't see the room for the battery packs at this point.  The batteries would have to go from 150 Wh/kg to 300 Wh/kg to have much chance at fitting in the same dimensions (assuming the same density of mass).  I know there was some chatter about an Empulse 12.0, because of the RR's battery pack, but realistically I don't think anything bigger than a 14.0 could be done by 2015. 

But I'll be happy to let the Brammo guys surprise me for being too conservative!

[Gavin]

Well they did double the power in the Enertia inthe same space...Enertia classic has 3.1, the Enertia Plus has 6.2 and in the same amount of space...so it might be possible...but too costly now...I give it 3 to 4 years and we will see an Empulse 20 for about the same price as the current 10....

Gavin

[Gavin]

It does bring up the concept of Brammo naming...

For the Enertia it is fine to have the Classic and the Plus...but where does it go next?

And for the Empulse...it is already a question...6, 8, 10...12, 14, etc etc...

So should Brammo... keep with adding a number at the end that is based on battery power or based on range.

Enertia 3, Enertia 6, Enertia 9, Enertia 12 etc etc

Empulse 6, 8, 10....12, 14, etc

Or by mileage...

Enertia 40, 80....120, 160---personally I look forward to updating to an Enertia 160

Empulse 60, 80, 100....I do like Empulse 200 more than Empulse 20.

I do think the average consumer might understand a number based on mileage more...and I kinda like the bigger numbers...



Gavin

[Phantom]

I just keep being really suspicious about those weights.  They look too round, and too out-of-date ... 

I agree. These weights have pre-dated the IET and new batteries news as well as more likely changes to the prototypes. Before the Enertia Classic was released, a change in the final production weight was one of the last pieces of information released.

Protomech is using the change in weights between the bikes to estimate, so I think it works.

[Phantom]

Or by mileage...I do think the average consumer might understand a number based on mileage more...and I kinda like the bigger numbers...

I think mileage is tricky because it varies by rider and scenario. You can be heavy, ride a bunch of hills in cold weather really fast with the wind going against you or be light, ride on a flat backroad in hot weather really slow with the wind at your back.

I agree that people do want a simple way to differentiate the different bikes.

[protomech]

protomech -- Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Brammo changed batteries since they first announced the 360, 390, 420 weights? 

I just keep being really suspicious about those weights.  They look too round, and too out-of-date to invest anything into them.  Just a couple of kilo's here and there, and all the the sudden they are back somewhere in the 190 to 250 Wh/kg range, or way down to Zero's 130 Wh/kg range.

Nope, you're absolutely right. Those specs were released as soon as the Empulse was announced, and I suspect the actual specs will be similar but not identical.

We'll see what the actual weight of the packs is once the bikes are released.

BrammoBrian did say:

There is no EV battery pack in production today that boasts a higher specific energy that that of the Brammo BPM 44/70.

There's a lower bound on the battery pack specific energy of 120 Wh/kg to beat the Tesla Roadster's (3 years ago! wow!) Very likely it is higher, but no way to know for now. And specs are often not aligned with reality, anyhow.

The problem with an Empulse 20.0 is the actual physical space limitations.  I just don't see the room for the battery packs at this point.  The batteries would have to go from 150 Wh/kg to 300 Wh/kg to have much chance at fitting in the same dimensions (assuming the same density of mass).  I know there was some chatter about an Empulse 12.0, because of the RR's battery pack, but realistically I don't think anything bigger than a 14.0 could be done by 2015. 

But I'll be happy to let the Brammo guys surprise me for being too conservative!

Right. Packaging is a big issue.

One hint is Panasonic's 18650 cells that I mentioned earlier. They have a 2.9Ah and 3.1Ah cell currently, Panasonic expects to be producing a 3.4Ah cell prior to March 2012, and a 4.0Ah cell prior to March 2013.

All of these are in the same form factor, an 18mm diameter / 65mm length cylindrical cell. The specific energy Wh/kg goes up a bit, but what actually happens is the weight of the cell goes up from the 2.9Ah to the 4.0Ah cell. Volume stays the same, energy goes up a lot, weight goes up a little.

No idea if we'll see a similar effect as lithium batteries continue to evolve. But it's good for racing!